Were there multiple lineages from primate to human?

I did “explain, with the earliest human species”, in my post at Were there multiple lineages from primate to human? - #61 by beaglelady (the post that begins “@beaglelady: The 200,000-year figure I think refers to . . .”), including eight URLs.

The berkeley.edu link you provided is interesting but a little vague on this exact point. Perhaps the author/s thought more specificity was not scientifically warranted; or maybe they just didn’t get around to it very precisely. It says, “some forms, such as A. africanus, are found to be closer to humans than A. afarensis and others”, thereby implying that A. africanus and A. afarensis were not humans, but that could still leave Homo habilis (1.4-2.4 million years ago) as human, as the Smithsonian asserts (Homo habilis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) and, anyway, the Smithsonian considers A. africanus and A. afarensis both as actually human (Australopithecus africanus | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program and Australopithecus afarensis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program). The berkeley.edu page is undated as displayed and in the source code but, at a glance, it seems similar to one posted in February, 2011, according to archive.org. (All of my URL accesses were on May 14, 2016.)

Time is limited, so I’ll take your word on the book’s contribution. (The 4th ed. is from 2014 and last year the 5th came out.)

If the modern view includes disagreements on point among physical anthropologists, I’m not surprised and disagreements are often acceptable. The anthro folks will sort it out eventually. When they do, I think it’s likely that, even while anatomically modern humans might be limited to the last 200,000 years and even without new discoveries, the specialists will still posit that humanity of some kind began millions of years ago.

It seems to me that, in every major field, scholars disagree on a minor proportion of the field’s intellectual content, which, I think, enhances the field’s scholarly validity.

So you think that “Ardi” was human? Some of your links have syntax errors.

A few sources are ambiguous; the Smithsonian Institution leans toward including Ardi as human. I take the Smithsonian as one of the authoritative sources, albeit secondary, on the subject but maybe their leaning goes too far. It (Ardipithecus ramidus | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) describes the species nicknamed Ardi and formally known as Ardipithecus ramidus with ambivalence by classifying it under “Human Fossils” but saying “[t]he discoverers argue that the ‘Ardi’ skeleton reflects a human-African ape common ancestor that was not chimpanzee-like.” It says Ardi lived about 4.4 million years ago (ibid.). But the Smithsonian describes an even older species, Ardipithecus kadabba, alive 5.2-5.8 million years ago, without the ambivalence, with “[t]his early human species” (Ardipithecus kadabba | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program). And it says, “Sahelanthropus tchadensis is one of the oldest known species in the human family tree” (Sahelanthropus tchadensis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) and her/his time range is 6-7 million years ago. The Australian Museum (http://australianmuseum.net.au/sharing-a-common-ancestor (2012)) says, “[m]ost scientists believe that the ‘human’ family tree (known as the sub-group hominin) split from the chimpanzees and other apes about five to seven million years ago” but appears to be ambiguous about Ardi being an actual human or just an ancestor of humans (“. . . the oldest known skeleton of a human ancestor” (http://australianmuseum.net.au/ardipithecus-ramidus (2015))). Science magazine, peer-reviewed, in a 2009 abstract (I didn’t register for the full article), seems not to declare Ardi a full human (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/326/5949/74 and see list in Science | AAAS) and the Smithsonian has an article that’s ambiguous (The Human Family's Earliest Ancestors | Science| Smithsonian Magazine). University of Alaska Fairbanks is also ambiguous (Ardipithecus ramidus; four feet to two – Naturally Inspiring) or as not humans (“Ar. Ramidus also shows a reasonable transition for the evolution of refined bipedalism due to spending more walking around, and which could lead the evolution of Australopithecus found 0.7 million years later, and then eventually to humans . . .”). Also appearing to be ambiguous is Scientific American (How Humanlike Was "Ardi"? - Scientific American (2009)).

(All of these URLs were as accessed May 15, 2016.)

URLs in this website, at least in this thread, should be carefully selected and copied to a browser address bar, when they’re not linked by BioLogos. The absence of linking seems to be a technical issue with the software BioLogos uses. I haven’t seen a syntactical error within them or in how BioLogos formatted them; feel free to point one out.

There is a difference between being a human ancestor and being a human. “Ardi” predates even “Lucy”!

The BioLogos forum software doesn’t allow you to make your own standard html links for security purposes, but you can make clickable links using the hyperlink button. It’s the fourth icon from the left. (What we type will be translated to proper HTML by the time the browser renders it.) Bottom line is, you have to make links their way.

Agreed on the anthro. However, modern humans or anatomically modern humans are a subset of all humans, even if there are nonhumans who are close enough to be hominins. We wouldn’t be adding the adjective “modern” if there was no need to distinguish from other humans. As to which species are humans other than modern humans, I’ve been leaving that to the sources cited above, and I chose those sources because they seem to be authoritative. We shouldn’t say that I’m choosing the wrong sources because we disagree with their conclusions, but we may well disagree with them if they conflict with primary sources, such as a consensus of refereed articles or texts by known authorities. They’ll likely be interested in knowing if they’re wrong.

“Lucy’s species”, according to the Smithsonian, is Australopithecus afarensis and “one of the longest-lived and best-known early human species”. That’s a declaration that Lucy’s species was human, not just human-like or ancestral to humans, and, for the time being, I’ll take their word for it. That species lived “about 3.85 and 2.95 million years ago”. All of this is at <http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/australopithecus-afarensis>, as accessed in the last hour (May 16, 2016).

On Ardi as human, I reported what the sources said, including ambiguity. If you think they’re wrong, tell them.

A similar issue probably arises for every case of a complex species that evolved into another species, and that probably includes all of the sexually-reproducing species (if there’s an exception, I don’t recall reading of one). There probably is a number of individuals who lived when one evolved into the other, for which individuals a precise taxonomy as one or the other is impossible, and among whom reproduction is possible even when between a more-evolved individual and a less-evolved individual who may, if taxonomic divisions were arbitrarily assigned, be of the two species but who are so genetically similar that separation of species would be, as of now, groundless for those two individuals.

I didn’t use HTML and I still don’t see an error in the URLs as displayed in my browser (Firefox 46.0 on openSuse 13.2 Linux). Most of them don’t turn into links but that’s normal on many websites and I wasn’t trying to make links (I try not to have to learn the various ways of formatting peculiar to many websites and prefer to just type or paste most of the time). The only peculiarity is that one URL that became a link has a number in a circle next to it, perhaps for how many times it was clicked. I’ll try the icon you mentioned for links.

No, it’s a declaration that “Lucy” is a species of “early human,” just like your quotation explains.

An early human is a human. However, an early hominin is not necessarily an early human. In this case, the anthropologists are probably using English as most people would, since specialists tend to develop more specific words and phrases for nonstandard meanings, and evidently someone developed “hominin” (formerly “hominid”) for that purpose. Thus, at least one authority is classifying Lucy as a human, albeit an early one.

There is a professional, scientific definition for hominins: they are species that lived after the human and chimpanzee lineages separated and are more closely related to humans than to chimpanzees.

I think most people could recognize that a creature like Australopithicus afarensis, is a human ancestor rather than a human.

I also think that you could easily make links using the link button above this editor window. After all, it’s a simple 2-step where you only have to fill in the URL and the text to display.

I don’t know if you meant to exclude humans from hominins, but that hominins include humans is stated by both the Smithsonian and the Australian Museum, as of May 19, 2016. Hominins also include earlier species but humans are not excluded from the hominin subfamily (subfamily per Australian Museum).

I reported on the difference on scientific views on Australopithecus afarensis. Relying on what most people would think is relying mainly on lay views, likely to be strongly influenced by the pictures of external reconstructions of face or overall body (to laity, much like any ape or monkey) rather than on internal aspects or external details like toes affecting mobility. The lay view traditionally separates humans by far from any other species; scientists brings us closer but I don’t know if the general public completely agrees, as it often leads to lay disputes about how special humans are or are not.

You may have noticed that I did successfully link the one URL I posted after you brought up the BioLogos method of linking. I said I’d try it and I did. It worked then. Thank you. I usually don’t look up most icons because they usually are for things I don’t need.

I didn’t exclude humans. Humans are more closely related to humans than to chimpanzees. My definition came from a textbook.

Reconstructions/interpretations are done based on scientific evidence, done using the same techniques used by forensics investigators. Do you go to museums to view fossils?

I was referring to how lay people view reconstructions, not reconstructions’ or interpretations’ scienticity, but they’re probably academic and probably better than what comes from forensics. I don’t go to museums any more; I prefer literature. Lay views can be quite different, to the point of contradicting science, so it’s risky to rely on them.

I made a syntactical slip in my last post (I should have written “science brings” or “scientists bring”). Your second sentence has a slip but I think I know what you meant.

I don’t rely on lay views. I was pointing out that EVEN ordinary people can see that A. afarensis was not a human.

Feel free to go view casts of the fossils and reconstructions. I got to meet paleo artist Viktor Deak and his collaborator anthropologist Gary Sawyer at the museum one time.

Since lay people, by definition, lack specialist knowledge and skill, that virtually all of them would see A. afarensis as not human (I agree with you on that) is not determinative of specialist knowledge. On many points specialists and laity agree, but on many they don’t. With respect to some specialists, this would be a case for disagreement.

There’s been recent work on colors and fur-covered areas of extinct species that no human saw alive or as preserved soft tissue, so maybe we now know enough to reconstruct to that level of detail, but we’ve been shown colors and fur distributions even when there was little scientific basis for them, and I don’t remember seeing plaques saying they don’t know what the colors were. Well-written books by subject scholars tend to avoid those traps, but exhibit sponsors or designers who want panoramas probably want to capture the public’s imagination, so they fill in what’s unknown. (Some books are badly written even by people who should know better, but not so often.) I also prefer books over lectures and classes; I can pace for myself and go back to earlier passages whenever it suits me. I’ve gotten more out of Scientific American than from a major planetarium. But I’m glad you met the anthropologist and the artist and maybe got to ask some questions.

Actually on many points the specialists don’t agree with each other and often change their judgements given new data.

So I have to ask, “What’s your point?” I have read this thread from the beginning and I really can’t tell what it is you are trying to accomplish.

@beaglelady: Wrong (this responds to a now-deleted comment). That would require giving primacy to lay perceptions over scholarly perceptions and I, as I’ve consistently argued in this thread, give primacy to scholarship over lay disagreements, other than to use lay views as a source of questions that generally might suggest but not limit subsequent scholarly research.

Other than moving from there having been two parents for humanity to a minimum of 10,000, resulting from a correction by DennisVenema above, I think my views have been consistent over time and with known facts since I began this thread and for some time before. And I have better things to do than spend time idly fighting, which is why seeing the same points being raised after refuting them is unhelpful. Perhaps showing where a writer’s analysis is unsupportable seems contentious, but in that case perhaps you can point out how I could have phrased any of my points so that they’re made with the same or better transparency.

You disagreed with authoritative sources on who counts as human and I addressed that. I invited you to contact them and tell them of your disagreements; you haven’t mentioned attempting that. If you still disagree with them, so be it; you’re free to do so. But on some points you and I seem to agree with each other without acknowledging it, as I’ve pointed out above.

I look forward to an intellectual challenge that shows where something I’ve believed is wrong or that explores unentered territory. That is a hallmark of scholarly inquiry.

@Bill_II: That specialists often disagree with each other and that specialists change their minds when facts change are both true, but those statements are not contradicted by what you quoted of I wrote, which I wrote in the context of whether lay views are determinative of scholarly findings. Your position looks like a critique of something I didn’t say as if I had, and I wonder how that would get us to clarity on the substantive issues raised (and largely answered). That specialists often disagree with each other on one or another point is reflected in my posts where I discuss disagreement between sources. That specialists change their minds when the known facts change is consistent with what all of us have been saying throughout this thread and is not in dispute anywhere I’ve noticed and my interest in modern findings is why I originally placed my opening post under the Scientific Evidence heading.

On what I’m trying to accomplish, that’s even easier: I wanted to learn something about which I was curious, and so in the opening post of this thread I asked a question, which was answered long ago in this thread, as I’ve acknowledged soon after, and starting in the opening post I stated an inference with respect to reproduction, an inference based on the timing of evolution of each sex (and accommodating an alternative hypothesis requiring that a difficult condition be met). That inference appears to hold up. It may well be distasteful, being reminiscent of a taboo, but I addressed that, too. I responded to issues raised by several posters and tried to be helpful where I could, although sometimes those issues seemed to veer from the thread’s titular theme. In short, I think your question is answered by me in the thread.

If there’s something specific you want me to address, please be specific about what it is, so I can try to help you. And if you find a specific error in what I wrote and that I did not correct in a subsequent post, please point it out, but without positing something I did not say as if I had, and, if I agree that I erred, I’ll be glad to acknowledge it, as I have above. Note that simply saying I’m wrong doesn’t make me wrong; you have to find something about which I’m wrong, identify it, and perhaps make the case about why it’s wrong.

Ok let me be a little clearer. In this statement your assumption is on some unspecified set of “points” ALL specialists and ALL laity agree. Did you really mean that?

If you could be so kind as to restate that inference in a few sentences. I can not find anything in this thread that supported what I thought was your inference.

Here, context helps. Context is important because it is not practical, nor normally expected, that every sentence include every condition needed so the sentence can stand by itself. In this case, the sentence you are quoting is the second sentence of a paragraph. The first and second sentences of that paragraph say this: “Since lay people, by definition, lack specialist knowledge and skill, that virtually all of them would see A. afarensis as not human (I agree with you on that) is not determinative of specialist knowledge. On many points specialists and laity agree, but on many they don’t.” Here, what I’m saying is that on many points lay people do not agree with specialists and specialists do not agree with lay people. And that’s true. For example, in many fields, specialists often learn something before anyone else does and then tell the general public (composed mostly of lay people). The rate of acceptance by lay people may be fast or slow. If Harvard and the FDA announce a new 10-cent pill that will wipe out cancer starting tomorrow, acceptance will likely be fast. But by the time I learned that gravity is measured on the basis of two masses, Einstein had already pronounced that wrong, so my source or sources had been late. The Brontosaurus is also a case in point. According to Scientific American, scientists first thought it existed as a genus, then decided that what had been found was actually of another genus so that there was no Brontosaurus, and then, as of 2015, believe it should be a new group, all at the same time that the public believed in the Brontosaurus as a distinct creature. And, I think if you ask passersby on a street to name all the planets, virtually everyone will name nine. But scientists would say either eight or eleven, because they’d either exclude Pluto as no longer a planet or count Pluto, Eris, and Makemake as dwarf planets. Scientists re-evaluated Pluto in 2003 but I doubt most of the public has caught up even though it’s now 13 years later. Learning that “my very educated mother just served us nine peanuts [or another p-word]” as a mnemonic makes change harder. Applied to this thread, it’s likely that most lay people would look at a picture of “Lucy” and say “that’s no human being” but some scientists say yes, it is. That scientists disagree with each other on that point I acknowledged above. But while almost no lay person shown a picture of “Lucy” would say “human”, some specialists disagree with laity and are entitled to. That entitlement is a consequence of the specialists having specialized, having spent time and energy studying the question and developing reasons for their conclusions. I accept the scientists’ differing conclusions (differing with each other) about “Lucy”'s humanness and reject granting the lay view dominance or equality with scientific views.

As a side point on whether I acknowledged that scholars disagree with each other, I also wrote above, “[i]t seems to me that, in every major field, scholars disagree on a minor proportion of the field’s intellectual content, which, I think, enhances the field’s scholarly validity.”

On the inference: In the opening post, I wrote, “It’s likelier that ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’ each had reproductive intercourse with a primate who was very similar to themself until evolution occurred again.” In post #23, I wrote, “That ‘one’, however, does not deny that there could have been an original 10,000 or so, if they were 10,000 or so beings who could reproduce (to yield fertile offspring) with both ancestors and contemporaries who were exclusively primate and contemporaries and descendants who were exclusively human.” In that same post, I wrote, “Either (a) there’s an in-between state whereby a being (from a potentially small number) can reproduce with either an exclusively primate or an exclusively human or (b) both men and women humans had to come into existence at the same time, i.e., be born within a few years and in sufficiently close proximity so they could reproduce with each other if they couldn’t reproduce with predecessor primates. The former (‘(a)’) seems much more likely. . . .” That post goes on to say much more on point. I could rewrite #23 to be clearer but then it would be substantially longer, not shorter, and I don’t think you want that, and post #53 (to find it search for “I take your angle as correcting some of what I’ve said above”) adds substantially. Posts #28 (search for “I don’t think today’s human could reproduce even with the primate of 4.3 million years ago”), #34 (search for “I think I did leave plenty of room for uncertainty”) (that post seems to have gotten mangled), #56 (search for “I’m not surprised you thought”), and #59 (search for “Considering linear evolution”) say a little of what #23 and #53 say but probably don’t add much to them. That my inference holds up was not because everyone agreed with it but rather because no one successfully refuted it. You’re welcome to have a go at it, but I wouldn’t suggest rushing through the text.

I’ll try this: Two possibilities are available. One is that, despite the differences between the 10,000 or more first humans and the immediately-ancestral primates being as extremely slight as could have been, they were not able to reproduce with each other, in which case the first human females and the first human males had to come into existence within roughly 15 years of each other, and maybe sooner, and in physical proximity, and that does not seem as likely as the other possibility. The other possibility, which I think is likelier, is that, because the differences between the 10,000 or more first humans and the immediately-ancestral primates were so extremely slight that they could not tell themselves apart as separate species (even if they had all of our modern knowledge) and reproduction could occur when a human of either sex mated with an immediately-ancestral primate of the other sex, in which case the first human males (in any quantity) and the first human females (in any quantity) did not have to have met or have to have been of the same generation or physical neighborhood. In either case, humans of both sexes eventually had to mate with each other and exclusively of nonhuman primates because all would have evolved too much to support any other reproductive possibility.

The URLs are as of May 20, 2016.

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