Were there multiple lineages from primate to human?

@Christy: I’m not surprised you thought that’s what I was saying, since this thread has gotten so long. But I wasn’t. We’re somewhat arbitrary in placing a dividing line between human and immediate nonhuman ancestral species. Individuals next to the dividing line were only so slightly different that they could reproduce with each other. Thus, a human of that time could mate with a nonhuman of that generation. Eventually, however, as humans continued to evolve they could no longer reproduce with contemporary nonhumans of the species from which the humans had evolved. The humans would have changed too much. Thus, for humanity to continue, mating by humans eventually had to be with other humans, whereas earlier it did not have to be. Where I wrote “perhaps had to earlier”, I was referring to a little earlier, not so much earlier that we’d be back to the dividing line or before, but rather that the two human sexes had to meet in time to be able to produce enough offspring to form a surviving and growing community of humans who in turn reproduced until we have today’s large population. The alternative, if the two human sexes had not met in time to have enough offspring for community stability and growth, could have been inbreeding with early death of so many individuals that the community and humanity could become extinct. Evidently, the sexes met in time. It’s still the case, though, if evolution was slow enough, that the first human females and the first human males may not have met, and the first meeting could have been by later generations, and before then humans could have mated with individuals we, with hindsight, would define as being of the ancestral species. We define a dividing line without naming all of the individuals on either side; but the individuals back then, even if they knew the same science we do, could not have identified who was on which side of the line, even if they were mating.

On irony, I think the poster was being humorous in a misplaced way but probably not ironic. But that’s an interpretation and the poster might have another view. It’s minor, anyway.

I don’t think this “dividing” line existed.

Individuals in the same population would continue to evolve with their contemporaries. I’m confused by what you are talking about when you keep talking about this line between humans and non-humans. We are talking about a progression that happened to a population over a very long period of time, over many, many generations, right? It doesn’t make sense to talk about individuals. Presumably for an ancestor species to evolve in a different direction, it would be in an population that had been isolated from the future homo sapiens population for many many many generations. There would not be an opportunity for inter-breeding.

It sounds like in your conception group A evolves human females but the males are non-human. Group B evolves human males but the females are non-human. Luckily some of the human females from Group A hook up with some of the human males from group B and wa-la, humanity is saved. Is that what you really think or am I misunderstanding?

Individuals don’t change into a different species than their parents. Populations diverge over many many generations. At some point, the entire population is reckoned a separate species from the other descendants of an ancestor population. There are no individuals crossing some biological threshhold into “new species” one at a time. You cannot have a population where the males are a different species than the females. That doesn’t make any sense.

@Christy: Considering linear evolution (I’ll deal with branching below), in part you’re saying the same thing I’ve been saying, although not entirely.

The exact dividing line, as noted, is arbitrary but exists within broad parameters. There are humans today and have been for about 4.3 million years. There were nonhuman ancestors immediately before that and long before that. The nonhuman ancestors evolved into humans, and did so gradually, perhaps with as little as one molecule changing at any time. Even if every individual who lived 4-4.5 million years ago had been preserved under ideal conditions and we had everyone’s DNA and age and place and identified some as human and some as nonhuman, we still would be left with some individuals who could be either. Those who could be either were in what I called an in-between state and what I think a biologist above referred to as hominins; any of them might have been a human or a prehuman ancestor but we don’t know which and if we could time-travel back and meet them and conduct full medical examinations we still wouldn’t know. We could classify the genes and chromosomes so that every single body had to be one or the other, but that would, at the in-between stage, be arbitrary, in that it would be so precise as to have only weak scientific underpinning, at least as of now (that could change in the future as we develop good reasons for tighter taxonomic boundaries but I think we haven’t yet). So there was a community that we’re unsure about; they could have been either human or nonhuman.

But the community’s members were so similar in terms of what defines a species that they could reproduce with each other. Thus, it is possible that individuals who were among the first humans might have reproduced with individuals who were among the last prehuman ancestors. (If someone wanted to be gross and toss accuracy out the window, they might say, “you mean that beautiful lady in the red dress had sex with a hairy gorilla?” Remove the exaggeration and what’s true is that I’m saying that probably a human had sexual intercourse with a prehuman and thereby had a baby and probably that happened many times with no heightened medical risk or social disapproval.) They wouldn’t have known the difference even if today’s scientists had time-travelled back, arrived with precise classifications, proceeded to say, “you, standing by the tree, you’re human” and “you, wading in the brook, are a prehuman ancestor”, and taught the individuals all of our modern science. Even so, the two individuals could have looked at each other with no idea how to confirm or deny the modern visitors’ findings or declarations. If those two individuals were adults of different sexes and chose to attempt reproduction, they’d have had no unusual difficulty (beyond that faced by any two who are clearly of the same species). The baby might be either human or prehuman, then could grow up and reproduce the same way within the same paradigm of species-definition uncertainty, repeating the cycle until evolution had advanced enough that there’d have been no doubt that the resulting children were all human and any attempt by any of them to reproduce through a primate’s service would eventually fail, because the genetic differences would have become large enough to make certain that they were of different species.

In other words, human females from Group A did not have to wait for human males from Group B to save humanity. Group A could have reproduced within itself and Group B could have reproduced within itself, each Group being composed of members at an in-between stage and thus any member could have been newly human or an almost-human ancestor, with all of the members of one Group being similar enough genetically that they could reproduce together. If environmental conditions continued to pressure evolution in favor of humans, babies in both groups would have tended toward being human until humans predominated and then would have evolved enough that they could no longer reproduce with nonhuman primates.

There may be a way in which the first humans, whom I understand numbered at least 10,000, did not have sexual intercourse with any individuals who were prehuman ancestors. That would be if the first 10,000 included both males and females who were adults at the same time and in the same geographic community/ies and in sufficient numbers of each sex to generate enough offspring to lead to today’s 7,000,000,000+. Possible, but that’s less likely. If evolution from sexually-reproducing ancestral species required creating both sexes temporally that close together when they had not been doing so before, then that would be one more reason why most mutations fail: the two sexes not being even nearly simultaneous would end the evolutionary attempt. But if a new-species adult of either sex could reproduce with an immediate nonparental nearly-lateral ancestor because they’re similar enough to support the possibility, then that would make evolution easier, and I think that possibility is the more plausible of the two.

You wrote, “[i]ndividuals don’t change into a different species than their parents. Populations diverge over many many generations. At some point, the entire population is reckoned a separate species from the other descendants of an ancestor population.” I take the second and third sentences as correcting or counterbalancing the absolutism of the first. In that case, we agree. I’ve already said that change is gradual. But change happens. If some number of generations occur between what is clearly one species until there is clearly another species, and all of the generations in between changed in the same direction, we don’t say that the in-between individuals are not of any species. Either they’re in-between and thus of one or the other species (although we don’t say which) or we arbitrarily assign a species to each.

You wrote, “[y]ou cannot have a population where the males are a different species than the females. That doesn’t make any sense.” Yes, it does, and yes, we can have that population, provided the members who are of one sex and one species are able to reproduce with their immediate ancestral neighbors of the other sex, unless there are even more failed mutations because both sexes did not evolve into existence at about the same time and place. But because of the uncertainty of species-boundary definition, it’s likely that the genetically extremely similar could reproduce together across the arbitrary boundary.

Branching became a subject in this topic but I think I may have confused things there. The primate species from which humans evolved still, I think, exists, albeit itself having evolved, too. Humans branched off from a species of primate. But if two species branch from one so that three species result, the observation of that makes a more compelling case for recognizing and naming all of the species involved and for attempting to describe the species precisely enough to make identification of more members easier. But that’s a trivial point (meaning me who’s being trivial), because it doesn’t change that there’s a vaguely-defined area in between at each junction where one species evolves into another, where some individuals could be either the “before” species or the “after” species but we don’t know which.

When scientists draw a tree of evolution, I think humans come into existence from an ancestral species at only one locus on that tree. The tree is a summary, a scientifically valid summary but still a summary, and does not map every individual, but summarizes what’s known about species. Whether the number of prehuman-to-human evolutionary loci (on that conceptual tree) is limited to only one is what I was asking about at the beginning of this topic and that seems to be the consensus answer, unless I hear otherwise.

To answer the question in the title of this thread:

Are there multiple lineages from WOLF to the various breeds of the modern domestic dog?

If you can define your terms adequately for canines… then I suppose we can apply the same logic to primates. Off hand, I would suggest that Neanderthal and Sapien are as closely related as Wolf and modern Dog… which, in other words, is JUST PARTIALLY.

It’s more like 200,000 years. I don’t really follow the rest of your post.

[quote=“Nick, post:59, topic:4935”]
If someone wanted to be gross and toss accuracy out the window, they might say, “you mean that beautiful lady in the red dress had sex with a hairy gorilla?” [/quote]

Have you ever considered writing for Game of Thrones?

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@beaglelady: The 200,000-year figure I think refers to when the most recent common ancestors (MRCA), male and female, of us today were living. That’s not when the first humans were living. Some lineages died out or were absorbed, so they can’t supply an MRCA for us. The figure of 4.3 million years ago is what I’ve read in various sources for when the first humans existed. Ignoring pre-human species, humans themselves have evolved through several species. Approximately similar year figures are available from other sources. The Smithsonian cites 6 million years by starting at Sahelanthropus tchadensis in the Ardipithecus group, which it describes as “[t]he first humans” (Human Family Tree | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program and Sahelanthropus tchadensis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program). At 4.4 million years ago there was Ardipithecus ramidus (Ardipithecus ramidus | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) and at 4.2 million years ago began the lives of Australopithecus anamensis (Australopithecus anamensis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program); the Smithsonian lists both under human fossils (on the web pages, see the boxes on the left). Homo habilis, an early Homo species, began living around 2.4 million years ago (Homo habilis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program). The “human-chimpanzee divergence” was said in 2001 in the Journal of Heredity by a Pennsyvania State University professor to have happened 4.3-6.5 million years ago (Human and Ape Molecular Clocks and Constraints on Paleontological Hypotheses | Journal of Heredity | Oxford Academic). The BBC reported in 2005 on “the remains of at least nine primitive hominids that are between 4.5 million and 4.3 million years old” (BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Amazing hominid haul in Ethiopia). In what may be too popular a treatment for accuracy, Discovery.com says, “the first accepted ancestors of humans branched off from other primates [”‘4.3 million years’" ago], said [Prof. Thure] Cerling" (http://news.discovery.com/earth/plants/savannas-dominated-cradle-of-human-species-110805.htm). All URLs were as accessed May 13, 2016.

In response to “I don’t really follow the rest of your post”, I don’t want to rewrite the whole thing and its context, but if there’s a point you don’t understand, feel free to post your question.

My only exposure to Game of Thrones is to some advertising. I don’t even know if it’s a game, a show, a movie, or something else. If you want to write for it/them, I’m not competing. Enjoy.

No, actually we descended from a population of modern humans (Homo sapiens) who have been around about 200,000 years. No modern humans were around 4.3 million years ago. Just ancestors of humans.

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True that Homo sapiens began around then, 200,000 years ago, but it’s not agreed that some of the predecessor species were not humans, too. They were not modern humans, but they were humans, and the time of divergence from what were not humans was millions of years ago, per the sources cited. If you know of contrary authoritative sources, please cite.

That descent was from a larger population rather than from only two individuals I don’t dispute. I originally thought two, but the case for a larger-population origin was made above.

I don’t know what you consider human. Please explain, with the earliest human species. Take a look at The Emergence of Humans from Berkeley’s Understanding Evolution web site.

Or take a look at the book called “Evolutionary Analysis” 4th edition, by Scott Freeman and Jon C. Herron. Chapter 20 discusses human evolution.

Physical anthropologists don’t agree about too much, anyway

I did “explain, with the earliest human species”, in my post at Were there multiple lineages from primate to human? - #61 by beaglelady (the post that begins “@beaglelady: The 200,000-year figure I think refers to . . .”), including eight URLs.

The berkeley.edu link you provided is interesting but a little vague on this exact point. Perhaps the author/s thought more specificity was not scientifically warranted; or maybe they just didn’t get around to it very precisely. It says, “some forms, such as A. africanus, are found to be closer to humans than A. afarensis and others”, thereby implying that A. africanus and A. afarensis were not humans, but that could still leave Homo habilis (1.4-2.4 million years ago) as human, as the Smithsonian asserts (Homo habilis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) and, anyway, the Smithsonian considers A. africanus and A. afarensis both as actually human (Australopithecus africanus | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program and Australopithecus afarensis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program). The berkeley.edu page is undated as displayed and in the source code but, at a glance, it seems similar to one posted in February, 2011, according to archive.org. (All of my URL accesses were on May 14, 2016.)

Time is limited, so I’ll take your word on the book’s contribution. (The 4th ed. is from 2014 and last year the 5th came out.)

If the modern view includes disagreements on point among physical anthropologists, I’m not surprised and disagreements are often acceptable. The anthro folks will sort it out eventually. When they do, I think it’s likely that, even while anatomically modern humans might be limited to the last 200,000 years and even without new discoveries, the specialists will still posit that humanity of some kind began millions of years ago.

It seems to me that, in every major field, scholars disagree on a minor proportion of the field’s intellectual content, which, I think, enhances the field’s scholarly validity.

So you think that “Ardi” was human? Some of your links have syntax errors.

A few sources are ambiguous; the Smithsonian Institution leans toward including Ardi as human. I take the Smithsonian as one of the authoritative sources, albeit secondary, on the subject but maybe their leaning goes too far. It (Ardipithecus ramidus | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) describes the species nicknamed Ardi and formally known as Ardipithecus ramidus with ambivalence by classifying it under “Human Fossils” but saying “[t]he discoverers argue that the ‘Ardi’ skeleton reflects a human-African ape common ancestor that was not chimpanzee-like.” It says Ardi lived about 4.4 million years ago (ibid.). But the Smithsonian describes an even older species, Ardipithecus kadabba, alive 5.2-5.8 million years ago, without the ambivalence, with “[t]his early human species” (Ardipithecus kadabba | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program). And it says, “Sahelanthropus tchadensis is one of the oldest known species in the human family tree” (Sahelanthropus tchadensis | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program) and her/his time range is 6-7 million years ago. The Australian Museum (http://australianmuseum.net.au/sharing-a-common-ancestor (2012)) says, “[m]ost scientists believe that the ‘human’ family tree (known as the sub-group hominin) split from the chimpanzees and other apes about five to seven million years ago” but appears to be ambiguous about Ardi being an actual human or just an ancestor of humans (“. . . the oldest known skeleton of a human ancestor” (http://australianmuseum.net.au/ardipithecus-ramidus (2015))). Science magazine, peer-reviewed, in a 2009 abstract (I didn’t register for the full article), seems not to declare Ardi a full human (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/326/5949/74 and see list in Science | AAAS) and the Smithsonian has an article that’s ambiguous (The Human Family's Earliest Ancestors | Science| Smithsonian Magazine). University of Alaska Fairbanks is also ambiguous (Ardipithecus ramidus; four feet to two – Naturally Inspiring) or as not humans (“Ar. Ramidus also shows a reasonable transition for the evolution of refined bipedalism due to spending more walking around, and which could lead the evolution of Australopithecus found 0.7 million years later, and then eventually to humans . . .”). Also appearing to be ambiguous is Scientific American (How Humanlike Was "Ardi"? - Scientific American (2009)).

(All of these URLs were as accessed May 15, 2016.)

URLs in this website, at least in this thread, should be carefully selected and copied to a browser address bar, when they’re not linked by BioLogos. The absence of linking seems to be a technical issue with the software BioLogos uses. I haven’t seen a syntactical error within them or in how BioLogos formatted them; feel free to point one out.

There is a difference between being a human ancestor and being a human. “Ardi” predates even “Lucy”!

The BioLogos forum software doesn’t allow you to make your own standard html links for security purposes, but you can make clickable links using the hyperlink button. It’s the fourth icon from the left. (What we type will be translated to proper HTML by the time the browser renders it.) Bottom line is, you have to make links their way.

Agreed on the anthro. However, modern humans or anatomically modern humans are a subset of all humans, even if there are nonhumans who are close enough to be hominins. We wouldn’t be adding the adjective “modern” if there was no need to distinguish from other humans. As to which species are humans other than modern humans, I’ve been leaving that to the sources cited above, and I chose those sources because they seem to be authoritative. We shouldn’t say that I’m choosing the wrong sources because we disagree with their conclusions, but we may well disagree with them if they conflict with primary sources, such as a consensus of refereed articles or texts by known authorities. They’ll likely be interested in knowing if they’re wrong.

“Lucy’s species”, according to the Smithsonian, is Australopithecus afarensis and “one of the longest-lived and best-known early human species”. That’s a declaration that Lucy’s species was human, not just human-like or ancestral to humans, and, for the time being, I’ll take their word for it. That species lived “about 3.85 and 2.95 million years ago”. All of this is at <http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/australopithecus-afarensis>, as accessed in the last hour (May 16, 2016).

On Ardi as human, I reported what the sources said, including ambiguity. If you think they’re wrong, tell them.

A similar issue probably arises for every case of a complex species that evolved into another species, and that probably includes all of the sexually-reproducing species (if there’s an exception, I don’t recall reading of one). There probably is a number of individuals who lived when one evolved into the other, for which individuals a precise taxonomy as one or the other is impossible, and among whom reproduction is possible even when between a more-evolved individual and a less-evolved individual who may, if taxonomic divisions were arbitrarily assigned, be of the two species but who are so genetically similar that separation of species would be, as of now, groundless for those two individuals.

I didn’t use HTML and I still don’t see an error in the URLs as displayed in my browser (Firefox 46.0 on openSuse 13.2 Linux). Most of them don’t turn into links but that’s normal on many websites and I wasn’t trying to make links (I try not to have to learn the various ways of formatting peculiar to many websites and prefer to just type or paste most of the time). The only peculiarity is that one URL that became a link has a number in a circle next to it, perhaps for how many times it was clicked. I’ll try the icon you mentioned for links.

No, it’s a declaration that “Lucy” is a species of “early human,” just like your quotation explains.

An early human is a human. However, an early hominin is not necessarily an early human. In this case, the anthropologists are probably using English as most people would, since specialists tend to develop more specific words and phrases for nonstandard meanings, and evidently someone developed “hominin” (formerly “hominid”) for that purpose. Thus, at least one authority is classifying Lucy as a human, albeit an early one.

There is a professional, scientific definition for hominins: they are species that lived after the human and chimpanzee lineages separated and are more closely related to humans than to chimpanzees.

I think most people could recognize that a creature like Australopithicus afarensis, is a human ancestor rather than a human.

I also think that you could easily make links using the link button above this editor window. After all, it’s a simple 2-step where you only have to fill in the URL and the text to display.

I don’t know if you meant to exclude humans from hominins, but that hominins include humans is stated by both the Smithsonian and the Australian Museum, as of May 19, 2016. Hominins also include earlier species but humans are not excluded from the hominin subfamily (subfamily per Australian Museum).

I reported on the difference on scientific views on Australopithecus afarensis. Relying on what most people would think is relying mainly on lay views, likely to be strongly influenced by the pictures of external reconstructions of face or overall body (to laity, much like any ape or monkey) rather than on internal aspects or external details like toes affecting mobility. The lay view traditionally separates humans by far from any other species; scientists brings us closer but I don’t know if the general public completely agrees, as it often leads to lay disputes about how special humans are or are not.

You may have noticed that I did successfully link the one URL I posted after you brought up the BioLogos method of linking. I said I’d try it and I did. It worked then. Thank you. I usually don’t look up most icons because they usually are for things I don’t need.

I didn’t exclude humans. Humans are more closely related to humans than to chimpanzees. My definition came from a textbook.

Reconstructions/interpretations are done based on scientific evidence, done using the same techniques used by forensics investigators. Do you go to museums to view fossils?