Math is hard.
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Do you know when, where or how these precise changes in physics occurred? Can you offer some illumination into what actually changed and how ‘Genesis science’ might measure something like the distance to the Andromeda galaxy? (Current astronomy suggests ~2.5 million light years away).
You’ve made dozens of comments but not one with a measure or a testable hypothesis. If you’re going to advocate ‘Genesis based science’, please lay out the theoretic and methodology for this endeavor. For starters, this is stuff the Natural Theologians started on a few hundred years ago. Maybe consult their work and discoveries?
I don’t think it is meant to be compelling, just that there is no other alternative but to fall into Last Thursday-ism. A deceitful God will not allow themselves to be caught, unless they want to be caught, and then we would know they are not to be trusted. An honest God forced by necessity would give the appearance of a deceitful God, and there is no way to know the difference. No one thinks Omphalos is a good idea.
Another way of looking at this: Scripture may be inerrant, but interpretation of scripture is not.
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Sir, would you please clarify–you appealed to proof. What would you use as proof for someone who is not a Christian? Thank you
Claiming things never changed is the problem. Totally flies in the face of history and bible
The folks in science that predict the future of the sun and earth and universe etc are false prophets. Truly. Literally. Fully.
If you find some math that tells us how Spirits create universes get back to us. Meanwhile you are welcome to your beliefs.
No. But from the sudden change in lifespans of mankind that is best graphed from the time of Babel after the flood, I am going with that time for now. Something happened worldwide that affected how bodies work and how long they live etc. It also affected how we think, in that people suddenly could not understand other people. Trees no longer grew in weeks either. God even changed the diet of men in that we now were to eat flesh. Spirit beings no longer married women and had kids with them either. Lots of changes
Do not pretend that science could or should be able to test what God does.
No believer denies last week or any time after creation actually. We only face the fact that the belief based anti Creator fables told by science are bad fiction
Proof? Science has none for their same state past. There is no possibility of ‘proof’ using natural only thinking and theories for a spirit created universe. We do have history that agrees to a large extent. Most major kingdoms started not too long after Babel for example. Greece China, Egypt…etc. They all believed spirits were real as well. Then we have the bible. A past that was not the same fits to a tee. Also the vast experiences of untold millions over great time with God working and affecting their lives means that we have millions of ‘test tubes’ that confirmed the experiment. he is real. This sure beats that absolute nothing burger that science has for a same state past
Let us all remember and be perfectly clear as well, that you have precisely NO facts or evidence anywhere at all for a same state past.
You have been provided much evidence in this thread, patiently by others as well. You have offered no substantial responses, and your state of denial does not make reality disappear.
You are very confused. Once again please, scientific analysis applies to the domain of the natural world, not incantations of metaphysical entities.
The weather forecast is a future prediction based on science.
More confusion. You have been informed things have changed. We know a great deal of what those changes were and how they happened, and they are not as you claim.
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By this point of the conversation, it is clear nothing of any substance beyond some vague “it was different” is forthcoming, and the metaphor of playing chess with a pigeon applies. I will take my leave unless something new or interesting comes up.
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Tell the truth, using the belief there was a same state past does not mean it is evidence of one. It just means you molest evidences with that belief. You have precisely ZERO proof for it. And it runs contrary to the record of the Almighty.
What is clear is that we looked at the belief science uses and for which you can not provide one shred of evidence for. That belief that they use to make dark and bible opposing anti Creation models falsely called science.
So I kinda wonder… If we took a modern MacBook back to the time plants were first created… Would it boot? That’s a device that is exquisitely dependant on various physico-chemico & quantum mechanical interactions to function.
If it would not boot, would you be so kind as to venture a proposal about which parts and process would fail and why? Hopefully a description about the specific processes disrupted like energy levels changing between the gates in the logic circuit or the electro-chemical potentials of the reactions of the lithium in the batteries. If physics changed, would you suggest how they did and the impact they had?
Perhaps you could consider the same thought experiment for these periods too:
- Just after Adam’s creation
- Just after the fall when Adam and Eve are kicked out of the garden.
- Right at the time of the Flood
- And next week. I’d be practically interested in how you would know whether the MacBook would boot next week. Things change so will things like planes fall out of the sky next month?
No where in Genesis are we told how the world works. We are told why, which doesn’t include discussion of natural laws (which the original audience wouldn’t understand anyway).
These don’t require or demonstrate changes in natural laws. Changes are just your addition.
Alright, so far you’re rejecting uniformitarian assumptions without proposing a model that makes the same kind of predictions, and a plain reading of Genesis isn’t a substitute for one.
What you’re claiming is that mainstream science is functionally a naturalistic faith, yet the dichotomy between natural and supernatural is a false one. God works through ordinary processes, and describing those processes rigorously is what scientists actually do. None of it rules out a first cause, intelligent causation or extraordinary events like miracles. Science describes the processes that govern creation and never claimed it has to pretend they’re uncaused. Scientists aren’t really looking for new ways to disprove God.
Since theology is the ground you’re standing on, I’ll go like this:
if God transcends time, space and energy, it follows that He creates things in potential by His word. The Bible doesn’t reveal a God who tinkers with His creation, it reveals a world that is teleological in nature, where things unfold purposefully because their ends were declared in advance.
“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isaiah 46.v10-11)
Which means the “fake history” assumption cuts against you. A world with a fabricated past assumes the creation is unintelligible, that the heavens lie. But Psalm 19 says the heavens declare the glory of God. They can’t declare His glory and be a fabrication at the same time so we have to choose. YEC has to choose because appearance of age isn’t the signature of a “mature” creation, it’s the accusation that God built the evidence (redshifts, supernovae, galaxies) to mislead.
And treating the scientific method itself as atheistic by nature is full-blown conspiracy framing. Scriptures warned about that inclination:
“Do not say, 'A conspiracy,’ concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” (Isaiah 8.v12)
Since time is relative for the God who declares the end from the beginning according to scriptures, on what authority does your literalism exclude a purposeful unfolding of creation through ordinary processes under His governance, where the creation (the heavens as Psalm 19 says) testify truly?
Back in Adam’s day, we used to have to walk five miles to school. Sometimes it was 20 miles for the exact same route. You just wouldn’t know in advance. But it was always uphill, both ways!
You kids don’t know how lucky you have it with consistent physics these days!
Today you can use tree rings to date things. Trees are everywhere! Back then, we had to make do with the occasional crop circle that the aliens made for us.
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Hard to say. Before the fall, Adam was basically like master of the world. Probably could walk on water have plants grow the way he wanted, spoke to animals and they obeyed him, could read minds, and some say man had some sort of light garments that covered us. In the future we will fly as Jesus did, be able to walk through walls, appear and disappear and transport to other locations instantly etc etc. It could be that life before the fall had some similarities to this. So a lot changed. As to whether a caveman level computer ‘would’ work there, it probably depends on if we wanted it to work. Jesus controlled weather, the elements, the animals, and even gravity was His little servant. Our body, they say has electric currents running through it, charged particles and etc. All of this would be subject to our will and of course God’s will in the garden.When man disobeyed, suddenly the body worked differently and started to die.
Now if we look at the time of the flood, nature seems to have been different in many ways. No great heat produced by friction from a world of falling water (or moving land masses if any moved at that time) Trees still grew in weeks. (Noah sent a bird and found a new growth a week after there was none) People also lived over 9 centuries generally. Now, as for next week, who really knows? It does seem that in the end period of time things will again be different in many ways. My guess would be it will be the same next week though, since we will know when we are in that end of days period, and it is not this week. One difference we will see in that end time is spirit beings among men again. Demons. Angels. Miracles like calling fire from the sky and controlling weather etc. On your last point about planes, well, my opinion is that it might just change a lot again! I would be surprised if nukes even could work soon:) Wouldn’t that be a scream. All the prophesies of doom for us all out the window. Oh, and I do notice that horses and swords will be back in fashion soon as well. Could be that all those fancy electronic guns might become useless? 
Who knows?