Violence Stoning And Morality In The Old Testament

Faith & Science Conversation
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I’m curious, Nick, how you think your questions would be answered in YECism? What would “their answer” be that you would find satisfying about God commanding some sinners to be stoned? It looks to me like the theodicy only gets worse in that direction.

I don’t think one need rely on any overt religion or theism of any kind to be able to answer that one. Nearly any secularist with any cultural sensitivity whatsoever will agree that human beings are more significant than a hair or a cell or a rat. “Proving” it is another matter of course … but none of us gets any free passes in that direction.

I don’t think you’re fully understanding or appreciating Nick’s quandary here.

Let’s put it this way. Is it appropriate and right for us today then to go ahead and stone blasphemers? Adulterers? or rebellious teenagers? Presuming your negative answer there, “why not”? And Nick wants to know why God told them to do it then if we are not to do it now. Let me know if I misrepresent you, @NickolaosPappas.

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That gets into a lot of really difficult questions, and to the heart of the matter. If it is God’s immutable law, and God never changes, what does that mean we must answer? And is it blasphemy to call God a liar and deceiver? And is that not what you are doing if you say God created a universe that is not what it observed to be? Perhaps we should not go there.
Ultimately, Paul looked at the Torah, and realized no one could meet its standards. As Dylan said, “Everybody must get stoned.” The only answer is grace.

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No mervin. Read the post again. I said that hes assuming

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Got it, Nick! Sorry about that.

I’ll never hear that line the same way again, Phil! Deep theology from Dylan.

[I had never actually looked at the lyrics to that before … and thought it was something about drugs. seriously.]
-your local cultural ignoramus / will also answer to village idiot

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Well, I think tongues are firmly in cheek on that.

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Ironic glossolalia?!

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Bearing in mind similar brutalities in surrounding cultures and it is only in more recent times that even capital punishment has tried to be more humane, the OT is probably no worse than any other culture was at the time. Even at the time of Jesus there was stoning etc. There do seem to be in parts of the law much more humane prescriptions for dealing with people. The Law is big corpus drawn from many periods of Isaelite history that is not always reflected when read together as if it all was given at the same time.
We judge things from the more humane stance that has been revealed to us in more recent centuries.

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Nick you said, “ But how can God being just can command stonings of simple sins like adultery etc. I get the eye for an eye and im all in for it. But the others are a little troubling. Like glutony ? Comon.”
I have been burdened and grived all day because of those words. What word from God has led you to believe that adultery is a simple sin? This type of thinking does not come from God or from the Spirit of God.

Hear the heart of God concerning adultery.
When God gave the Law he said Ex 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.” Throughout scripture God revealed how he hated adultery. It is plain to see how grievous of a sin it is.

Jesus speaking about marriage said, Matt 19:4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Though God told Israel not to commit adultery, Jesus went to the cause of the sin, he said, Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart . 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Paul said, 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Then in Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral , those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur . This is the second death”.

We have to repent from this worlds way of looking at sin and see how wicked and abominable it is and how much of an offense it is to the Father and the Son.

Those who would say “But were under grace.” Listen to what God says about grace.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age , 13 while we wait for the blessed hope — the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. 15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

And He says to those who are under his grace (favor).

Heb 10: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, "The Lord will judge his people ." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Can we who say we believe in Jesus miss the grace of God? Yes!

Heb 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. 18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken — that is, created things — so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

Why didn’t Jesus condemn the woman caught in adultery? John 8:11"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. " Go now and leave your life of sin." Because he came this time to save us from our slavery to sin. He said in, John 12:47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

But there is a time coming when His judgment and wrath will be poured out on all who continue in sin and who hold their thoughts higher than His. Jude 14-16 “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

God is Holy! Those who continue in sin and rebellion will not enter into the Kingdom Of God. The fear, dread, terror of the Lord is pure and if a man surrenders to it, it can lead him to repentance, faith and love of God.

Adultery is not a small sin and is worthy of death now and in the coming Kingdom Of God.
All rebellion against our Holy Father is worthy of the most severest judgement.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

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What i meant about the simplest sin is that adultery is a very simple sin in contrast of murder or rape or some other more serious sin.

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Try telling that to Jesus.

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I don’t have to because he already told us and the Word of God can not be broken.

Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
NIV

John 12:47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Rev 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
NIV

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I was thinking of the woman taken in adultery.

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Why didn’t Jesus condemn the woman caught in adultery? John 8:11"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. " Go now and leave your life of sin." Because he came this time to save us from our slavery to sin.

He said in, John 12:47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. ( But there is a day coming when even that woman will be condemned if she did not obey his word “Go now and leave your life of sin”) 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

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I thought you said adultery is sin and worthy of death.

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It is worthy of death. The fact that all the sexually immoral with be thrown into the Lake Of Fire which is the second death shows that it is worthy of death. God has not changed His opinion that adultery is worthy of death, this is shown by the final judgement of those who don’t repent and turn away from that sin.
Luke 16: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
The Law was given to show God’s holiness and righteousness so that by it our sin would become exceedingly sinful.
When Jesus began to preach the Kingdom Of Heaven it was to bring salvation to mankind not to condemn them for they already were condemned because of their sins. So until His return His followers are told to call people to repentance,faith, love and obedience to Him. We are not told to execute temporal judgement on the unbeliever at this time but we are to, just as Jesus did, warn them of the eternal judgement on them because of their sins.
Just because His followers don’t go around executing, fornicators, murderers, homosexuals, liars, those who are rebellious and disobedient to there parents ect…does not mean God has changed His opinion or judgement on all who continue in sin. The Lake Of Fire, The Second Death is the judgment for all the unrepentant.

With all the scriptures that I have posted it should not have been hard to understand what was being said.

Though we may not execute the wicked, God can still judge the unbeliever and His own people now and can kill those who sin. Read Acts:5 to see how God killed some Christians who lied to Him and this was done during the so called age of grace.The Father has always had the right to give life and take it away.
I hope this has cleared this up for you.

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It is likely that things were so harsh at the time of the development of what we call the Law of Moses that the code developed was a restraint on accepted activity.

For example, we see “an eye for an eye” as harsh, but it would be seen as restrictive by a person who wanted to kill the person who put out his eye.

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Why does adultery receive the judgment that it does both in the past and future?

Ex 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.

Lev 20:10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife — with the wife of his neighbor — both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

God made woman for man to be a suitable companion, they become one flesh. It is God’s command that no one divide this union, God will not hold those who break this covenant guiltless. God considered Israel His wife and when she broke this covenant and went out whoring after other gods, He brought just and severe judgment on her. The breaking of the marriage covenant is an abominable sin. So when people break the marriage covenant which is a representation of God’s union with His people he is righteous and just to execute His judgment on them. His people are meant to be a light to shine God’s righteousness to the world. Jesus goes to the heart of the act by condemning the lust after someone as the same as the action. Jesus died and rose from the dead to kill our old man and destroy the power that sin had over us. Through trusting in Him and His death and resurrection which becomes ours we can be free from this temptation and sin.

In the new covenant He has become our sacrifice that can purge the guilt of that sin and the judgment as long as we turn from it. It may be daily that we have to turn from that temptation as other temptations but it is daily that the Spirit of God gives us power over the temptation. If the thought (temptation) comes, we can call on the name of the Lord for deliverance and trust in our death and resurrection into a new life to save us from it. If we resist the temptation we do not sin, it is the going after it in our hearts or body that brings wrath and judgment.

King David is an example of God’s mercy to those who are convicted of and repent from sin. (Psamls 51 was expressed after the prophet came to King David and confronted him about is adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband.) Ps 51:51” Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. 9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. 10.Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. 16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.”

Just as Jesus pointed out the sin to the woman who committed adultery (“go and sin no more”) and did not require her immediate death so with David who had a humble and repentant heart, God did not require his or Bathsheba’s immediate death, God showed mercy just as Jesus did. Repentance from sin, faith and love toward God brings mercy; though God did require the life of the child they had. As Job did not blame God for allowing his children to die; Job 1:21"Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised." 22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.” David did not judge God with doing wrong when his baby died. How can the creature judge his creator of doing wrong?

The wrath and judgment of God on all sin should create in us a holy fear that turns us away from all sin in heart and body and bring us to our knees in humility before God.

Matt 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Col 3:3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

May God bless all who seek Him in righteousness and truth!

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Stoning was a sanction against behaviour which threatened the stability or even the survival of the community, the Israelites imposed the death penalty as punishment for a variety of infractions and as a means of guaranteeing adherence to the stipulations of their covenant with God (e.g., Gen. 3:3; Lev. 10:6–7).

Among those crimes which merited capital punishment were

  • murder (Gen. 9:6; Exod. 21:12),
  • blasphemy (Lev. 24:16),
  • incitement to idolatry (Deut. 13:5),
  • fornication (22:20–21),
  • violation of the Sabbath (Exod. 35:2),
  • kidnapping (21:16),
  • striking one’s parents (5:15), and
  • sexual intercourse with animals (22:19; Lev. 20:15–16).

The death penalty was carried out in various ways.

  • Stoning was prescribed for idolatry (Deut. 17:2–7),
  • Divination (Lev. 20:27),
  • Disobedience toward one’s parents (Deut. 21:18–21),
  • Sabbath-breaking (Num. 15:32–36),
  • Adultery (Ezek. 16:40; John 8:5), and
  • Disrespect toward the king (1 Kgs. 21:13).

In order to remove corporate guilt, members of the community participated in the punishment, stoning the offender outside the city limits (Lev. 24:14; Num. 15:36; 1 Kgs. 21:10, 13; Acts 7:58), with witnesses to the crime throwing the first stone (Deut. 17:7; cf. John 8:7).

Burning was the punishment for

  • incest (Lev. 20:14),
  • harlotry (Gen. 38:24; Lev. 21:9), and for the
  • taking of consecrated goods (Josh. 7:15, 25).

Sin, as human estrangement from God and thereby the violation or dissolution of the covenant relationship, is presented as the ultimate cause of death (Rom. 6:16, 21, 23). It is because of sin that death entered the world to become the common fate of all mankind even though BioLogos doesn’t take this seriously (Gen. 3:2–7; Rom. 5:12–14; 6:10). Those who persist in sin are already in the clutches of death (Eph 2:1–2, 5).

The stoning custom continued into NT times, but there is no sure evidence that it was practised as an official legal procedure.

The book of Acts recounts

  • Stoning of Stephen, who is killed (7:58–60), and
  • Paul, who is left for dead (14:1–9); Paul mentions the latter incident himself in 2 Cor. 11:25. In both of these cases, however, the stoning is described as more of a spontaneous mob action than the result of a judicial process.

John 8:3–11 tells of an occasion when Jesus was asked whether the commandment of Moses requiring the stoning of an adulterous woman should be carried out; he replies, “Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” (8:7).

Jesus’s enemies do not actually propose that the woman should be stoned; rather, they seem to be presenting him with a test case for legal interpretation, to determine whether or not he favours strict applications of that law.

The Bible contains many laws that we’d now regard as unethical.

Persistent drunks should be stoned; people conquered in war should be wiped out; a poor Jew who can’t repay a debt should be enslaved; and a childless widow should marry her brother-in-law—even if he already had a wife—in order to have a son (Deut 21:20–21; 25:5; 20:10–16; Lev 25:39–40).

By the time of Jesus, these laws were mostly ignored in practice. The Jews knew that some laws had changed with time—for example, the law against shopping on the Sabbath wasn’t introduced until the time of Nehemiah, at the same time that the once-a-lifetime Temple tax turned into the annual tax (Neh 10:31–32; compare Exod 30:11–16). So the law of God wasn’t changeless.

The New Testament acknowledges that the law of God changes with circumstances—for example, when the priestly family changes, the laws about who can serve in the Temple have to change (Heb 7:12). This passage argues that the priesthood reached perfection and unchangeability in Jesus, but other circumstances still change.

When we read the Bible, we are looking over the shoulders of people living a few thousand years ago, for whom it was originally written. The law of Moses was revolutionary to them because it challenged them to live different lives. It didn’t immediately transform them into a fully egalitarian society with a social-benefit system and legally protected human rights, but it did point them in that direction and pushed them as far as possible.

We can see what Israel would have been like without God’s law by examining the laws of surrounding nations at the time. For example, if a man died without a son, these laws required his widow to produce an heir by sleeping with someone from her husband’s family. This could be anyone—ranging from her husband’s grandfather to his young nephew.

But the law of Moses changed this in a humane way: it restricted this law to her husband’s brother (i.e., someone roughly her age), and it gave her the choice to refuse.

In the Old Testament, the death penalty applied to many crimes that we now regard as merely warranting imprisonment. However, imprisonment was impossible in a community that lived in tents and later in farm shacks. Even stone walls were easy to dig through before the invention of hard-setting mortar, so there was nowhere to lock people up securely.

Even slavery becomes more acceptable when we realize it was often short term and voluntary. In exchange for wages in advance, someone would promise to work for up to six years in return for nothing but food and accommodation. Banks didn’t exist, so this was a practical solution if your daughter needed a dowry quickly or your relatives were about to lose their farm. And Israelite slaves had more legal rights than employees in many countries today.

Surrounding nations also had very different rules for warfare. Israel did kill or enslave people who attacked them, because letting them go merely resulted in another war a few years later, prompted by the honour-revenge culture of the time.

However, surrounding nations carried out this draconian policy for all their enemies. By contrast, Israel was only allowed to kill conquered enemies who actually lived within their territory—that is, those who could sneak up for revenge during the night.

When they conquered cities outside Israel, they should only kill those individuals who actually attacked them (Deut 20:10–17). Foreign leaders regarded Israel’s rules of engagement in warfare as very generous (1 Kgs 20:30).

God’s laws in the Bible constantly pushed humanity forward in order to change them for the better—in the areas of punishment, equality, and care of the oppressed. God’s law changed people as much as they could be changed at the time.

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That makes their sins then unredeemed. So instead of them letting these people repent or ask for forgiveness (except for the murderers,idolatrous etc) they stoned them? Why not letting the person who commited adultery ask for forgiveness? I get some of them rewuired stoning and i agree but some others i cannot comprehend

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Good questions , Nick, and I think if we were to live in those times, these would be permissible limits but were not applied unless extreme circumstances required, sort of like the "three strikes rule we have in the US (which is also controversial) where a recalcitrant criminal may be sentenced to life without parole on his third felony conviction, even though that offense may be relatively minor.
An adulterer might be stoned if his/her actions threatened the fabric of society. I cannot say I am totally comfortable but that is that.

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