Violence Stoning And Morality In The Old Testament

Faith & Science Conversation
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The idea that OT law is the prescription for a perfect society completely from God is downright preposterous.

What was it then?

The OT represents reform – improvements upon an existing form of social conduct. These laws and practices didn’t come entirely from God any more than slavery came from God and the OT. Slavery was the way of human life throughout the world, and the OT is God’s attempt to change this in a way that would work. Demanding absolute perfection immediately would never work – it never does. Revolution does not work. Only gradual improvements reforming the existing social structure has any chance of improving how things are done.

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16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

Think of mankind’s first temptation to sin against God and the result of his following after that sin.The act and the motives behind the act of eating what God said don’t eat brought death and sin into the world.
Rom 5 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

Sin brings death to mankind. Adultery is sin and worthy of death. It’s not only the act of adultery but the motive of the heart that is condemned as Jesus said.
Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Look who is cast out of the kingdom of God in the end.
Rev 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 22:12-15
12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

It is obvious that all sin is worthy of death, just look at and consider Jesus executed on the cross for our sins. But thanks be to God who through Christ has killed my old self that was a slave to sin so that I could be be free from it having mastery over me.
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
Gal 2:20-21
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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In sorting all this out, I think it helps to consider what it is that God was doing with Israel. Was he forming a perfect nation to be an example for others? Was he making a perfect society for his beloved children to inhabit? What was he doing? Over and over in the OT we hear that the world will be blessed through Israel, through Abraham. This was God’s purpose. In order to do that he needed to make a nation whose culture and history would explain who Jesus was. What if Jesus had come and there had been no such nation as Israel? How would we understand the phrase - Lamb of God? How would we understand his death in our place? The purpose of God’s dealings with Israel was to form a nation. Just a nation; one that would worship him. The laws of the nation were set up in such a way that the people would have a deep respect for them and for the God they worshiped. If God had provided the kind of laws we live with today, the people would have laughed, or would have ignored them as some strange oddity. They could not have conceived that a group of people could live the way we do today. God could have taught them, of course, but why would God have wasted time re-educating the Israelites? It is a great mistake to take these ancient laws and pretend that we should live by any of them today. They are not for us. They played their role as part of history. God is not a God of laws; he is a God of love. To love him and to love our neighbor is his only law, and the only one needed. It encompasses all the law and the prophets.

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This sounds so wrong. Why wouldnt he?

Plus a child be stoned to death because he was a glutton i mean common. I know these were the laws but im asking why such some of them are foolish and strict ones? I had a theology teacher back in high school (although i wasnt a christian till the age of 19) that he taight us that the Isralites had to do a certain number of steps to get to the temple on Saturday. This is silly and not commaned by God of course. But saying that a chikd should be stonned for gluttony is as silly as the steps rule and i cannot comprehend why God commaned that

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Sorry about that! I’d like to hear more about what you think.

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Nick, it’s not just that he over ate a few times, his whole character is corrupt.
Deut 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Phil 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

They are lovers of this life, lovers of pleasure, corrupt in all they do. The result will be the same for all who rebel against the Father and the Son, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
You have to see how evil all sinfulness is to understand God’s judgment on it.

Rev 4:8 “Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.”

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So if my son is an edgy teen with pentagrams on his hand i shall stone him? These are very strict laws. Also i dont get what was acceptable in ancient cultures and now. Like how it wad stoning people for gluttony acceptable but some other things werent ?

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Well, you have inspired me to do Some research to support my assertion that these were not “very strict laws” as we see laws today but were upper limits to guide communities in how to handle offenders, to be applied with restraint and wisdom . More to follow.

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But you do seem to know Melvin, unless I’m missing something:

“…God moves among one culture in their time and place, causing them to implement a certain system of justice ‘abc’ for their time. And then God at a later point in history, at a later time and place - and revealing yet more moves that generation toward system: ‘bcd’.”

Or were you suggesting this is what others think?

What I’ve got figured out is that regardless of whether God exists or not, nothing in social evolution, as in biological, requires divine intervention. And if there were any, there is no way of knowing. It explains nothing at all. And invoking it makes explanations… Ptolemaic. Imparsimonious.

And if God is actively pursuing me, He’s the best tail outside the old KGB. I wonder how the many Christians suss Him out?

He’s somewhat important to me too despite leaving no trace of intervention in the past 4 billion years of my genealogy.

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I would encourage you if interested to read Walton’s and Sandy’s book Lost World of Scripture. It is tough to pull out excerpts that are clear out of the context of the rest of their book, but will try drawing primarily from their Proposition 15 chapter.
First, it is noted that the expressions of law before Moses were present, and were oral in nature, only written down later, so it is not something comparable to our legislated legal decrees. Israel before this rim even and the societies around them shared similar laws and standards for societal conduct. Israel’s may have been more robust because it also carried the weight of being Isreal’s part of the covenant relationship with the holy God.
It is not thought that the sayings were rigid legislation, but rather were more in the realm of oracles, prophecy and revelation. There is no mechanism for requiring their enforcement, and but rather they are idealistic standards of behavior. (I wonder if they were considered much like the idea of a Year of Jubilee, which I understand was never observed in the history of Israel, someone correct me if that is incorrect.) To quote the book, “We do not need to be concerned whether the legal sayings were actually ever enforced as laws in Israel’s social,structure. In line with what we find in the ancient Near East, they could be considered to represent that which is ideal or theoretical.”
Now, to me, some of the rules are still problematic, but the understanding of them in their cultural context makes a big difference.

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Ok but those were Gods laws right ? Not some random cultural ones

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It’s what I think, though of course I was influenced by others (people here as well as authors such as Pete Enns) in coming to think that way.

I was merely reacting to what seemed to me to be a flippant dismissal of God on your part. I don’t look for special “divine fingerprints” in various phenomena - and so would guess that I probably think like you do in that regard (being comfortable with the seamless ‘whole’ as far as science is concerned.) But I also don’t disallow or dismiss revelatory claims that God’s fingerprint is on the universe … all of it … including whatever horrifyingly brutal moral systems got codified for posterity; complete with a “God stamp of approval” straight from some author’s prophetic pen. It’s part of our history, warts and all - the family history we were adopted into.

Maybe that just begins to answer @Randy’s question about what I think. Only the beginning of an answer, I realize. I don’t have any complete answer, and am not all that eager to go on much more about it than I already have here.

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I think the question hinges on whether what we call laws in the current age is what the ANE people eventually recorded ar Torah. It is sort of like in Pirates of the Caribbean: the rules are more what you would call guidelines. But more than that, they were more what was authorized if the situation demanded it, but not mandated, perhaps as a deterrent in part, but to show the seriousness of being in covenant
The whole question of inerrancy might be raised, but as these were idealized guidelines for the people of Israel at a particular time and place, inerrancy is not really applicable.

But, no doubt this is a difficult subject, and of course Paul, Peter and early Christians struggled greatly with these and other things like dietary laws and circumcision. If fact, it is interesting that they seemingly struggled with eating bacon more than stoning an adulterous woman to death and ignoring the adultous man.

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So what do we get from that? How are we gonna respond when objections are beign raised for this specific time of the people of Israel?

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Nick, The Law given to Moses was direct from God.
This is what Jesus thought about the Law…
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
And we know for certain Jesus was not deceived by thinking the Law was just some ANE cultural customs and thoughts.
John 8:28"When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the one I claim to be] and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

Paul speaking about the Law said…
Rom 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

In Hebrews the writer associates the rejection of the Law with rejection of Jesus. This association as well as what Jesus said about the Law makes it clear that the Law was not just some ANE ideas.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

People think the Law was severe, it is nothing compared to the wrath that will be poured out on all who continue in wickedness and unbelief.
Rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

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Hear is more from the Word of God to reemphasize that you can put all your trust in that the law is a “Thus Saith The Lord” that came directly from God

Ex 24:12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction.”

It is obvious that it is the Lord giving the Law by the multitude of times scripture states it is God speaking.
Lev 1:1 The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them:

Lev 10:8 Then the Lord said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you must teach the Israelites all the decrees the Lord has given them through Moses.”

Lev 18:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.
Lev 19:37

Lev 19:37 “‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the Lord.’”

Lev 26:14 "'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.

And it goes on and on. If this is an ANE mindset its because it was God’s thoughts and he required them to adopt the same opinion as Him.

Jesus said…
Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

The law came straight from God, not man.

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I salute your courage Mervin, thank you. I don’t dismiss God in the slightest. My desperate longing for Him. My desire. The same desire that makes ‘revelatory’ claims for His fingerprint. Claims within a claim, the claim of ‘revelatory’. The rhetorical claims of the ancients. In their desperate longing to the point of pareidolia. Like our hymns, psalms. Describing the God of our desire. Not as He is. As you say, the author of the eternal cosmos of infinite universes despite the rationally apprehendable, seamless ‘whole’ of it looking self written. I want Him to be the ground of being, yes, and therefore He is otherwise helplessly responsible for all meaningless suffering that cannot be helped, including our innocent brutality. Because it is the only possible breeding ground for the transcendent sublime.

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I agree. But how can God beign just can command stonings of simple sins like adultery etc. I get the eye for an eye and im all in for it. But the others are a little troubling. Like glutony ? Comon.

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Nick most of understanding this will be on you and the Spirit of God revealing God to you as you contemplate and meditate on who God is and what he is like. If you truly are seeking to know him then you are not in this alone. For those who seek wisdom he is more than willing to give it to them.

It’s not just stoning that is the issue, it is, who is God? Genesis 1 says “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” You need to deeply contemplate how this affects everything about creation and especially mankind. In reference to sins that God commanded Israel to punish with death such as cursing Him, murder, adultery, consistent rebellion against parents, homosexuality, bestiality, the foundation is in the fact that, “God created”.

For those who believe in evolution and mans death before Adam’s rebellion, none of your questions about stoning should be an issue. If we came from beasts and killing for any reason is a natural beastly character, then you have no need to question death of any kind. If all creation is just made of atoms and atoms make up molecules and molecules make up inanimate objects and cells of living creatures, then it’s irrelevant what happens to the whole creature (ie. Mankind). Why would the death of a human be any more tragic than the death of a hair cell on a rat?

Creation came out of who the Father is, from his nature and character. Since he is the Almighty and Holy Creator, no part of His creation has the right to appose him.

Take blaspheming God for example,
Lev 24:13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

How wicked is the human that curses the one who created him and sustains him, it is against everything that is right and pure. And how can a man judge his maker. Think on this and allow your thoughts to conform to God’s. Repent (ie. turn and change) your carnal human thoughts to come in line with God’s. He is the Almighty, none can oppose him. The more you understand and submit to His holiness, the more you will understand his actions.

Prov 8: I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.

Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

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We all are evolutionarists here. The majority st least. And no we dont believe we came only by atoms. As @mitchellmckain said in another thread we are more than that. So you dont really answer the question but rather assuming that we are like that (believeing that we are nothing more than atoms where even science says we are not only atoms)and if we were YEC my question whould be instantly answered.