Thanks phill. You said they were a mobile union. What about when they settled down and took Jerusalem? The laws were still active right? So they could have created a judicial system
The purpose of the Law was to show that men and women could not keep it. The purpose of the punishment is to show how reprehensible our sin is to God. This is a consistent message of the Old Testament and many of the Epistles. (e.g. Romans 3:20 “because by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified in His sight; for though the Law comes the knowledge of sin”)
Through my sin I am deserving of the brutal justice system you describe which make me appreciate more the sacrifice Christ Jesus made on my behalf.
I dont want to believe that people died just so to make an example of how serious sins are. They were deadly we know that.
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The problem with natural man, is that they do not understand just how evil every thought or action that is not prompted by love for or faith in God is. It takes the Word of God and His Spirit to convince us of how evil we are without him. Before the good news of Jesus being executed and becoming sin for us is of any value to us, we must be overpowered with the knowledge of our wickedness, God’s hatred of our sin and His wrath that is upon us. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
Gen 3:6-7
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh) and pleasing to the eye (lust of the eye), and also desirable for gaining wisdom (pride of life), she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
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Rom 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
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Rom 7:7-13
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
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Rom 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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Rom 1:28-32
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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Just one example of something God still despises and considers worthy of his wrath is disobedience to parents, which I would dare say many professing Christians don’t consider it that bad.
Stoning is nothing compared to what is coming when God pours out his wrath on all who continue in sin.
In Acts 2 Peter was preaching to a crowd of people, he quoted some prophecy’s about the Messiah and declared Jesus was the one. Then he said…
Acts 2:32-39
God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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They had just recently executed Jesus and now they understand who he was and what they did and “they were cut to the heart” and said” Brothers what shall we do?"
What mankind needs is a conviction of how totally sinful they are and that God’s wrath is on them because of their sin and then repentance from sin and love for and trust in, the Father and the Son.
Matt 13:40-43
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
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Again, stoning is nothing compared to the righteous and holy judgement and wrath, that will be poured out on all who love evil and don’t place their hope and confidence it the Father and the Son.
And the temporary trials that we go through for our faith in and love for Jesus do not compare to the glory that will be revealed in us at his return.
Nick, don’t think of them as being just examples of how serious sin is, but that they were receiving a just punishment for the individual sin that they committed.
Yes but it was a strict system. Like in some verses even the smallest sin could get you killed. Like if the child of the family didnt help gathering food etc.
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Do we create God in our own image or He us? Works out the same really doesn’t it?
I am not sure I understand. Do you think that stoning is appropriate for adultery?
I disagree with the idea that God is justified to separate from us for the least sin. He is better, not worse, than my parents (who were Christlike). If my daughter at 6 lies to me about a cookie, she should not be punished for eternity.
Thanks.
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Plus how did culture changed? I mean some middle eastern countries use stoning till this day. I don’t say its right of course not but how did all of this changed? Like from the one hand God implementes a judicial system and then decided to change it?
… or … God moves among one culture in their time and place, causing them to implement a certain system of justice ‘abc’ for their time. And then God at a later point in history, at a later time and place - and revealing yet more moves that generation toward system: ‘bcd’.
It need not be that God changed, so much as that our situation down here changed.
If your young child sneaks your car keys one day and actually starts your car, that would warrant a certain response from you (like maybe keeping your keys out of reach), and no doubt a stern talking to the child. Ten years later your (still not licensed) teenager takes your car out for a spin without your permission. This warrants a different level of response. Does that mean you changed and are inconsistent as a parent? Or is it rather that the same basic motivations (love for your child) are still in play, but applied differently because not all situations are the same?
True but here we are speaking about stoning people to death. Its like if i catch my child doing drugs destroying himself so i stone him to death. Or catch my son even at a younger age to steal and do all that kinda of bad stuff (supposed he got influenced by other motives despite of his righteous upbringing
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No - that’s not it at all. You aren’t getting the analogy here - or are pressing it way too far in the wrong ways.
Think of it this way. You live in a brutal culture that not only stones people, but … if somebody in a neighboring village steals from you, you gather your friends and neighbors together, head on over and wipe out their entire village, burning it to the ground, raping and pillaging as you go.
Then God comes to you and says … “not so!” From now on, instead of letting your vengeance have its full way, you will do “abc” instead. Later, in a different setting, and after some semblance of more civility (or at least less brutality) has been normalized, it may be discovered that “abc” is itself quite inadequate and better justice should be had.
You’re comparing the wrong way. Nobody is saying it’s great that they were stoning people. Nobody wants to go back to ‘abc’. We’re saying it’s great they aren’t burning down the entire village.
[Don’t think of it as “where is God at”, but instead think of it as “where is God moving us toward?” We’re all caught up in the notion that God should have perfected humanity all in one fell swoop. Instead, God has a habit of meeting us where we’re at, and then pointing the way for us to walk. No teleportation for us. We were given feet to use … history to learn from.]
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So indeed God changed the rules.But even at the tine of Jesus the law was still in efect so this was not a more civilized culture. We see it from Jesus own death. The “blasphemers” (as they accused Christ for that)and thieves were killed. So it wasnt a so much civilized culture. So since God changed the rules he changed his mind maybe
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What’s God got to do with it Mervin?
I think Mr Bitikofer is arguing it wasn’t God that gave them the rules at all…more like the Israelites made them up when they gradually became more aware, in an imperfect way, of what God was like. I also don’t think it was God that told them to eradicate the Canaanite children.
The Onscript podcast above describes how in a society of few resources, a glutton could actually be the death of the family. So, while it doesn’t make the rule right, it is more understandable.
Thanks
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Oh - I dunno, Martin. You may have things figured out otherwise somehow. But for many Christians, God is kind of important … and actively pursuing us.
I’m not sure I would go that far … (or at least not so far as thinking that God had nothing to do with any of it - sounds like that’s more down Martin’s alley). But I certainly do acknowledge (and appreciate) Enns’ influence in considering it in those kinds of ways.
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But the verses tells us otherwise. Its an misinterpretation then?Or the writers decided to put things aside from what God said in those texts?
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I just realized that this may sound like irony but it isnt. Sorry i should have putted it better. But its a genuine question. Sorry randy if you took it as irony i didnt intended it as one. Thanks
Nick, which scripture reference are you thinking about when you said a child was killed for not helping to gather food.
If i remember correctly it was Deuteronomy.I dont particularly remember a citation