To what extent does the Son submit to the Father? How does that relate to marriage roles?

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@Dale

enlightened self-interest,

From whence do you get the term enlightened self-interest? Is it in Bible? No. Is it a theological term? Not that I know of.

In fact when people talk about The Enlightenment, they are talking about a time of secularization, which is not bad in itself, but is out of place when talking about Jesus. I would agree that self is not evil.

We are called to love our neighbors as ourselves, not instead of ourselves. This is hopefully what you are trying to get at, but you haven’t said it and I cannot read your mind through the internet, unless you better explain yourself.

Let us go back to the basics. Jesus told us to Love God with all our hearts, minds, souls, and strengths, and to Love others as ourselves. Where does enlightened self interest fit into this framework? or is it extra?

Jesus died so that we might be saved. Right? But why then should humans be rewarded with salvation by the Father for murdering and torturing the Son? Why could the death of Jesus bring Him additional Joy? Jesus is God already.

@LM77

At the end of the day, however one chooses to apply Eph 5:21ff and similar passages, I would argue that there must be appropriate checks and balances within the marriage to protect against one-sided power dynamics. Without them, there is little to stand against the subjugation, coercion, and/or abuse (spiritual, emotional, physical, financial, sexual, etc.) of the wife. Because clearly it has and does happen under the guise of ‘biblical complementarianism’.

@LM77, Liam, the checks and balances are found in the Trinity and in the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit of Love, which is why ESS is both wrong and dangerous. It undermines the Gospel of God as Love and opens the door to OT Legalism. The fact is, the Church is right about Subordinationism, not Grudem and Co.

@Marshall

The problem, though, is that unending one-way subordination does not appear to be compatible with equality. Whether for the Trinity or the sexes, to insist on the subordination seems to reduce the equality to empty words.

Subordination is not compatible with equality.

On the other hand equality does not mean uniformity. As equality does not mean the absence of diversity, Paul taught on Cor 12 that equal members can play different roles in the Church (or family) and in fact we must if we and the Church is to thrive. Again this is all based on Love (1 Cor13.)

@Mervin_Bitikofer

We also shouldn’t forget the very significant movement on the prodigal’s part - he had to “hit bottom”, and be brought to repentance, and to begin his journey back too, which was not insignificant. We aren’t shown the father traveling out and pleading with a still rebellious son to have a change of heart. The son is left to learn the necessary hard lessons about his own life choices before the story could proceed to its heart-warming return.

The story of the Prodigal Son is a beautiful story, but I would point out that the Father treats both of His sons as adult human beings, even though the younger was not. The Father gives the young man his inheritance, even though He is a not dead and He knew that it would be wasted. Why?

The younger son wanted to submit himself as a servant to the Father, but He stopped him and accepted him back as His son, as equal as before. Only now they were reconciled to each other, there was unity in love, not authority.

And do not forget the older son, who was very angry that the Father welcomed home his brother. Luke 15:29 (NIV2011)
29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.'"

The older son though that submission and obedience were enough, but God wants us to live in love so we can appreciate others even when they go astray. The fact that the Father was giving a banquet for his brother did not mean that the Father did not love him.

The Joy of the Father was based on the Salvation of the younger son. The Joy of Jesus was based on His love of humanity who was saved through the Cross.