I love how you ignore what I say. You have yet to indicate that you understand what the Strong’s Concordance number means and how it is used.
I have and you ignore it.
Meaningless. As I pointed out above.
There is for the Israelites in Egypt.
Parallels are not hard to find when you selectively quote the text so again meaningless.
No idea what you mean.
Since I don’t accept your cultural amnesia theory, mentioned above, it is again meaningless.
No quite. Strong’s does not support a Hebrew translation of sedge.
In what languages?
I will respond soon in detail on Pi-hahiroth.
I think I did not make myself understood. Let us say the archaeological evidence supports crossing of the sea at the Bitter Lakes while the geographical information support the crossing at the Red Sea. My question is which of the evidences–archaeological or geographical would you give more importance. Hope clear.
[1]
Strong’s Concordance, Hebrew Dictionary
Pi-hahiroth, Pi-ha-Chiroth, a place in Egypt
Strong’s Number: H6367
Hebrew Base Word: פִּי הַחִירֹת
Part of speech: Proper Name Location
Usage: Pi-hahiroth
LITERALLY: PLACE WHERE SEDGE GROWS
Definition: Pi-ha-Chiroth, a place in Egypt.
[2]
McClintock, John. Strong, James. Entry for ‘Pi-Hahiroth’. Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature. Browse by letter: 'A' - The Catholic Encyclopedia -. Harper & Brothers. New York. 1870.
Pi-hahi’roth (Heb. Pi-hachiroth’, , ַפּי ִה ֹחי ֹרת
understood by some to be of Hebrew etymology,
and rendered mouth of the gorges; Sept. ἡ ἔπαυλις,
τὸ στόμα Εἰρώθ, Εἰρώθ; Vulg. Phihihiroth), a place
before or at which the Israelites encamped, at the
close of the third march from Rameses, when they
went out of Egypt. Pi-hahiroth was before Migdol,
and on either hand were Baal-zephon and the sea
(Ex 14:2,9; Nu 33:7-8). The name is probably that
of a natural locality, from the unlikelihood that
there should have been a town or village in both
parts of the country where it is placed in addition to
Migdol and Baal-zephon, which seem to have been,
if not towns, at least military stations, and its name
is susceptible of an Egyptian etymology giving a
sense apposite to this idea. The first part of the
word is apparently treated by its punctuation as a
separate prefix (Nu 33:8), and it would therefore
appear to be the masculine definite article Pe, Pa,
or Pi. JABLONSKY PROPOSED THE COPTIC PI-ACHIROT,
“THE PLACE WHERE SEDGE GROWS,” and this, or a
similar name, the late M. Fulgence Fresnel
recognised in the modern Ghuweybet el-bus, “the
bed of reeds,” near Ras Atakah. There is another
Ghuweybet el-bus near Suez, and such a name
would of course depend for its permanence upon
the continuance of a vegetation subject to change.
Migdol appears to have been a common name for a
frontier watch-tower. SEE MIGDOT. Baal- zephon
we take to have had a similar meaning to that of
Migdol.
[3]
David Falk, Research Associate. Vancouver School of Theology. Currently studying Egyptian culture and its intersection with the formation of early Israelite identity.
http://www.egyptandthebible.com/index.php/2018/09/18/pi-hahiroth-estate-temple-wadjet/
After Pithom, the Israelites camped before the fortress of Pi-Hahiroth (Exod 14:2). The origin of the name Pi-Hahiroth comes from the Egyptian pr-ḥwt-ḥrt. The toponym pr-ḥwt-ḥrt appears in one extra-biblical text, Papyrus Anastasis III:
THE (SEA OF) REEDS (PȜ–ṮWFY) COMES TO PAPYRUS REEDS and the (Waters-of)-Horus (pȜ–ḥr) to rushes. Twigs of the orchards and wreaths of the vine-yards [ … ] birds from the Cataract region. It leans upon [ … ] the Sea (pȜ ym)
with bg-fish and bȗrἰ-fish, and even their hinterlands provide it. The Great-of-Victories youths are in festive attire every day; sweet moringa-oil is upon their heads having hair freshly braided. They stand beside their doors. THEIR HANDS BOWED DOWN WITH FOLIAGE AND GREENERY OF PI-HAHIROT (PR-ḤWT-ḤRT) AND FLAX OF THE WATERS-OFHORUS. The day that one enters (Pi)ramesses (wsr-mȜˁ-rˁ stp-n-rˁ) l.p.h., Montu-of-the-Two-Lands. Papyrus Anastasis III (2:11-3:4)
This document, dated to the third year of Ramesses II’s successor, Merneptah (ca. 1222-1212 BCE), LOCATES PI-HAHIROTH ON THE WAY FROM THE SEA OF REEDS (pȜ ṯwfy) towards Piramesses. It appears as though Pi-Hahiroth was probably on the south coast of the Sea of Reeds in a marshy area on the edge of the desert. While no one knows the exact location of Pi-Hahiroth, it was probably is in close proximity to Migdol and Baal Zephon.
Egyptologists have long struggled with the meaning of the pr-ḥwt-ḥrt toponym. And early Egyptologists suggested that it might mean “House of (the goddess) Hathor,” assuming that the word ḥrt was an unusual or mistaken spelling of Hathor. The toponym follows Egyptian convention beginning with the hieroglyphic pr-ḥwt, “estate of the temple” or “house of the precinct.” It ends with the goddess character indicating that the final element, ḥrt, is theophoric.
William F. Albright suggested that it might mean “the mouth of the canals,” which he suggested was perhaps a Semitic etymology of the Egyptian Pi-Ḥ-r-t, yet this creative solution ultimately did not solve the problem of the theophoric name. He suggested that Heret was the name of a Semitic goddess. The problem is that, even though the name could mean “Estate of the Temple of (the goddess) Heret,” no such goddess is known. Therefore, Albright’s proposal was not a tenable solution to the problem.
I believe that ḥrt is an abbreviated spelling of ḥry(t)-tp, “the one who is on top.” The term ḥry(t)-tp is one of the epithets of the Uraeus serpent goddess, Wadjet, and therefore, the name would mean, “Estate of the goddess who is on top (=Wadjet).” This solution retains the theophoric aspects of the toponym and is consistent with known examples of the Wadjet epithet (e.g. Karnak
Rhetorical Stela [KRI V 89.10]).
PS. It may be that the Strong’s Concordance you have used has deleted the literal meaning given in the above version of Strong’s.
What languages are your prior usages in?
I agree that it is possible that the Hebrews crossed at a point where fresh water flowed in. But please see David Falk below. We are speaking of foliage and greenery. I agree that still does not “prove.” But when we compare with the possibility of Pi-Hahiroth located on the banks of the Indus river–then the stretching and artificiality of the Ehyptian location stands out.
David Falk, Research Associate. Vancouver School of Theology. Currently studying Egyptian culture and its intersection with the formation of early Israelite identity.
http://www.egyptandthebible.com/index.php/2018/09/18/pi-hahiroth-estate-temple-wadjet/
After Pithom, the Israelites camped before the fortress of Pi-Hahiroth (Exod 14:2). The origin of the name Pi-Hahiroth comes from the Egyptian pr-ḥwt-ḥrt. The toponym pr-ḥwt-ḥrt appears in one extra-biblical text, Papyrus Anastasis III:
THE (SEA OF) REEDS (PȜ–ṮWFY) COMES TO PAPYRUS REEDS and the (Waters-of)-Horus (pȜ–ḥr) to rushes. Twigs of the orchards and wreaths of the vine-yards [ … ] birds from the Cataract region. It leans upon [ … ] the Sea (pȜ ym)
with bg-fish and bȗrἰ-fish, and even their hinterlands provide it. The Great-of-Victories youths are in festive attire every day; sweet moringa-oil is upon their heads having hair freshly braided. They stand beside their doors. THEIR HANDS BOWED DOWN WITH FOLIAGE AND GREENERY OF PI-HAHIROT (PR-ḤWT-ḤRT) AND FLAX OF THE WATERS-OFHORUS. The day that one enters (Pi)ramesses (wsr-mȜˁ-rˁ stp-n-rˁ) l.p.h., Montu-of-the-Two-Lands. Papyrus Anastasis III (2:11-3:4)
You can examine a scan of the original Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary here
Strong’s original
It is again what I quoted. Be aware that Strong’s was written in 1890 and since it is long out of copyright people freely use and modify it. People maintain the Strong’s numbers but other than that all bets are off. So in your following link the “Literally: place where sedge grows” does NOT come from the original Strong’s. You have always seem to place great store on saying something comes from Strong’s but that really doesn’t mean much given people are free to add to or change what they say.
Given I have a paper copy bought 50+ years ago I don’t think so.
Edit to add:
The first question that must be answered is “When used in Exodus 14:2 is Pi-hahiroth Egyptian or Hebrew?” As near as I can tell it can be argued to be either.
Is that your way of acknowledging that it’s not Hebrew? Strong wrongly assumed it was. We are all expert Strong’s users. It’s Egyptian for sedge. Not Gujarati.
Actually it is much later Coptic, possibly (Coptic as a living language had been dying for centuries and may have become solely a liturgical language by the 17th century CE). This was reported by an early 18th century scholar in Latin which was then translated to English ‘place where sedge grows’. The Coptic word, pi-akhirot, might be descended from an ancient Egyptian word also meaning ‘sedge’ since Coptic is descended from ancient Egyptian. What I haven’t found is anyone in the nearly 2 centuries since the Rosetta stone was deciphered checking it against ancient Egyptian. In a Coptic dictionary online, sedge is ⲁϩⲣ which seems to transliterate as ‘ahr’. If it is sedges, the name works just as well on the shores of the Red Sea as the Indus (and the Red Sea is a few thousand miles nearer to Israel/Judea).
I admit the possibility that the (many) Strong’s versions I have accessed have been modified. But, please appreciate that being 50 years old is no guarantee of correctness. After all, my hypothesis is that the scribes got the geography wrong 2300 years ago.
I agree. So it can just as well be argued that it could mean sedges or mouths or whatever.
MORE FUNDAMENTALLY. Our interest in is whether freshwater sedges grow near the crossing point. The papers I quoted seem to agree with this. So whether Strong’s says sedges or not is not the question. Let us focus on comparison of Egypt as Mitsrayim; and Indus as Mathura or Mitsrayim.
I agree with your analysis of the Coptic antecedents. But sedge (and papyrus) is an ubiquitous feature of the Indus and a “needle in a hay sack” near the Red Sea. So, on comparative basis, Indus stands tall.
It is a certainty that the many versions you have accessed have been, let’s say, enhanced.
It is in terms of what was contained in the ORIGINAL Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon. The point I have been trying to make (it appears unsuccessfully) is you can’t quote “Strong’s” or anything that appears to be attributed to Strong as an authoritative source in this debate.
That should be Moses (who should know where Egypt was located) got the geography wrong unless you are arguing that the Pentateuch was entirely written or rewritten by scribes who had never been in Egypt.
Actually the most fundamental question, is Pi-hahiroth Egyptian, Hebrew, or possible both? The answer to that question determines if sedges would help with the location.
And as you yourself have said sedges would be found in fresh water inflows to the Red Sea in addition to any fresh water sources in the area.
I wait for your reply to this central question regarding 5 levels of evidence.
1] Parallels in Local Names, 2] Archaeological evidence, 3] Parallels in Local Texts, 4] Living Traditions, 5] Geography. Kindly place these in sequence of priority and, if you may, kindly give reasons for your sequence.
Not at all. Not overwritten. I hold the Hebrew text to be basically correct. mis.identification of places took place perhaps after the exile.
I think we can rest on pi.hahiroth. nothing new to say. It is only the 5 levels of evidence and a comparative assessment can solve the matter.
Can you explain how to “cut in the river and bruise” that you mentioned in your book? Indians wear a sedge dress that they “Cut in the river and bruise.” Next, they weave it into mats, which they wear as a breastplate. Did the Egyptians also wear sedge dresses and did this too? Can clothing provide evidence of archaeology?
So what are your thoughts on the origin of Passover?
They soak it in water to loosen the fibers. Then pound it to separate them. Then use it to weave as with threads. A variant is jute. Sacks of jute are made even today.
“Levels of evidence” is the wrong word; “quality of evidence” is what is wanted. Frankly nothing you’ve presented so far outweighs the evidence that the Exodus story is Levantine with knowledge of adjacent areas such as Egypt and it predates the exile.
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