The reliability of the Genesis Flood account

“So now you have shown how Jim cherry picked several verses to try to put them together to mean something that the original author did not intend.”

I can see you do this literal thing for a living.

The verses are ‘cherry picked’ as they are relevant ‘descriptions’ of how the hydromatic cycle works. They were not written as primarily to be scientific explanations, but in a narrative of context, to an audience incapable of comprehending explanation.

I suspect, if a survey of people were asked if these verses are broadley descriptive, they would agree mostly agree?

But, it seems you insist that these ancient descriptions must be to some modern lofty standard to your satisfaction?

But, as always, such discussions are polarising, because one either attributes creation to God (to whatever degree), or there was no God.

I makes me wonder, should one, according to your methods, dismiss entirely the works of Darwin, because of his thoughts on Gemmules?

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And yes, looking at Job 38-40 in ignorance of contemporary C6th+/- cultures including those that the unknown human writer’s evolved from, those that absorbed it, layer upon layer, and in parallel, linguistically connected remote yet neighbouring India but not China, is bound to lead to distorted magical thinking.

Again, what impossible therefore supernatural scientific insight is there concerning the psychology of ostriches in Persian-Babylonian-Jewish thinking?

The verses are based on naked eye observations of the natural world. They are not an explanation of anything. They are not based on some revelation from God as to how the world really works. If you want to make that claim then the many instances where the Bible gets it wrong would prove you wrong. The 300 lb gorilla in the room being the Bible’s description of a geocentric universe. I notice you have never responded to the verses that get things wrong.

The whole point of the video is God gets the science right so that is Jim’s standard, not mine.

Where have I have said God didn’t create? I certainly support that position.

Darwin isn’t God and can be wrong. Science is self-correcting so if he was in error it gets corrected.

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Indeed. And if it is held that the Bible represents God communicating science, then all science or natural observations in the Bible must be correct, or else God has failed in his efforts or knowledge of creation. You cannot have it both ways.

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Absolutely, let God’s lies be true and every man’s truth, including science and rationality that deny God lying, a lie.

A literal global flood killing all land-based creatures is inconsistent with the evidence that God has given us in creation.

And a global flood is not required by the text, only a local flood is required for a literal interpretation of the text. Once the alternate translations are included (land for world, hills for mountains). a local flood in a flat land is fully consistent with the text.

I like the point made here:

God asks Job if he is able to pull in Leviathan with a fishing pole, or take it home as a pet. God counsels Job to do no such thing because Leviathan is the kind of animal that will bite off your arm without a second thought ([Job 41:8])

(https://bibleproject.com/blog/gods-gives-job-tour-wise-world/#)

And, notice this important point, Leviathan is not evil or bad. Nowhere in this speech is Leviathan called wicked or unfortunate or described as a sad consequence of sin or the fall.

Just the opposite, Leviathan is beloved by God, a wonderful creature of great power and might. God is proud of this animal, and apparently, thinks it belongs in this world. Just don’t touch it or it will annihilate you.

This is fascinating. Here is a creature that will ruin your life if you happen upon it, but God loves it. Why does God even bring this up at all? Apparently, God’s world is ordered enough for the human project to flourish, but chaos has not been eradicated entirely from God’s world. The tohu-va-vohu (Hebrew for “formless and void” in [Gen 1:2]wilderness wasteland of Gen 1
wasn’t eliminated when God made the world. Rather, a space for garden-order was carved out and given over to humans who were commissioned to spread that divine order further out. Leviathan is out there, raw and dangerous, and you just might encounter it. It has the power to wreak havoc on your life, but what you cannot conclude from a run-in with Leviathan is that God is punishing you, or that this creature is evil. Neither is the case. You just bumped into Leviathan, and it unleashed chaos, tooth, and claw into your life, and your body.

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That’s evolved natural poetry and religion on evolved nature including religion for you.

I believe that the Genesis flood really happened (though not global) because there are too many details in the account for it to be made up. I think where we get stuck is that we look at it too puristically in terms of inspiration and word definitions, and such. To me it is an eyewitness account that was passed down through the ages, which became respected as a noteworthy story with lessons to be learned.

Following I present a fictional eyewitness account leveraging my experiences fishing, sailing, and boat-building. This is meant to get your creative juices going, to get our minds out of the theological and scientific boxes in which we have put ourselves. As you read this, I encourage you to refer to Genesis 6:11 - 8:19. Enjoy!

“In those days our world was very corrupt. Tribes up and down the coast were constantly stealing from each other, looting and raiding, raping and killing. However there was this man named Noah who didn’t behave that way,and he sensed that things were not going to end well. Through various conversations, observations, and dreams he determined that the distant Bosphorus Isthmus was eventually going to give way, and the waters above it would flood everything we know - our whole world. Time was of the essence.

Now timber was our main trade. We sold it either as raw logs or as square hewn beams. One night Noah had a dream of building a simple unmasted scow out of the beams. The simple design would be easy to assemble and by heavily covering with tar on both sides, he would avoid the time-consuming jointing work. In his vision he saw the boat having scantling dimensions of 300 length, 50 width, and 30 height, each a multiple of the beam width.

No sooner had he finished the ark, that he had another dream that he needed to get his family in it, as well as provisions for a long time. Sure enough, soon all kinds of animals began showing up as they fled from the distant rising floodwaters. The isthmus must have collapsed. So Noah collected a male and female of each kind of animal, and six additional pairs of the animals that we knew were safe to eat.

Then the weather got crazy. It started pouring cats and dogs. Thank God that Noah’s dream boat also included a roof. It rained every day for forty days. But the water rose even more than the rain accounted for. It’s as if it was coming up from the deep.

Eventually we felt the boat begin to drift. And it drifted, and drifted. Every day we would look out of the windows, and notice the mountains disappearing over the horizon. Never once did the boat scrape over a sandbar or anything. So the water had to be at least as deep as the boat’s draft, which was half way up the hull. As far as we could see from horizon to horizon, everything and everyone was gone!

We drifted around for months, and then finally a strong westerly wind started blowing, pushing us eastward. Eventually we noticed mountain tops appearing on the horizon. They got bigger and bigger. It seemed like the water was dropping. And then thuuuck! - the boat ran aground in mud. All around us was a vast plain of mud. So we waited forty days while it dried. Noah released a raven, but it just hung around the boat looking for scraps. So Noah sent out a dove, which he knew would go looking for nesting material. But it came back with nothing. A week later he sent the dove again. This time it came back with a fresh olive leaf! The next week when he released the dove, it didn’t come back.

Meanwhile the ground continued to dry, and one night Noah had a dream of everyone and every animal leaving the ark. So the next morning they ripped the battens off the hatches and left the boat.”

Nice modern retelling of a Jewish retelling of an ancient Babylonian story. When did that happen to Oxford again?

Have you read Lord of the Rings?

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You can always borrow from an earlier source.

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Not to mention the significant amount of science fiction, fantasy, mythology, etc. we have.

Babylonian? Are you sure it wasn’t Hattian , or even a culture before them? What are the implications of your response, that because the story preceded Hebrew it thus couldn’t have been inspired?

Lord of the Rings, science fiction, fantasy, mythology…

Where in any of my interpretation do you see any of that?

Let’s see…The Black Sea experiences an epic flood as the isthmus collapses. Fortunately someone saw it coming and had the insight to build a boat just in case. The boat’s dimensions were 100 feet long, 17 feet wide, 10 feet tall with a hull thickness of 4 inches. As the waters arose, trapping the animals on an ever-shrinking island, they kept moving to higher ground where the boat was built. The people captured some of the animals and put them in the boat, then got into it.

The rising waters from the Aegean engulfed the remaining island and lifted the boat, where it drifted out to the Black Sea until they could no longer see land. Out at sea they encountered high winds which drove the boat all the way to the southeastern coast, where Mt Ararat is located.

Eventually the ground dried up and the people let the animals go and left.

I’m sure that would make a great sci-fi or mythical blockbuster!

Can someone try to map the Gilgamesh flood story to a realistic account?

The Epic of Gilgamesh is not divinely inspired, no. I’m not aware of any older Hattian flood myth, no. You? Inspired or no, no. What do Jewish myths built on Babylonian myths and missing Hattian myths have to do with Jesus over two millennia later, beyond being part of his enculturation?

Just keep walking uphill. It’s a lot, lot simpler. The Ark was 4.5 x higher than that alone. I wouldn’t take to sea in your box. Three foot waves would have swamped it.

According to the biblical account, God instructed Noah to build a boat the size of today’s ocean going vessels. Then he needed to prepare it to take on thousands of animals and the food for them. Wow, a pretty huge multi decade project to prepare for a local flood. Why not, “Hey Noah, head out of this area where I am going to send a devastating flood?”

Then, of course, all the uses of the words “all”, “every”, “everything.”

Then it rains for 40 days and nights, and the fountains of the deep open up, and the whole flood takes over a year before they can get out of the ark. All a local flood?

Then God promises to never flood the entire earth ever again. But if it was just a local flood, then God lied. There have been lots of local floods since.

So yes, I think that a retired detective may know more than thousands of geologists trained in deep time geology.

Is this the retired detective that says the Bible is right about the flood because of all the “scientific facts” that the Bible gets right. All the while ignoring the “scientific facts” that the Bible gets wrong. Not a very good argument in my view.

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It’s not the Bible that got it wrong. It is the “deep time” interpretation of the facts that is wrong. The Genesis flood has never been proven wrong.