The Exodus no or little evidence

And here is my detailed reply to Falk:
Do Egyptian Place Names match with the Biblical Narrative of the Exodus?

An important evidence for the Exodus having taken place from Egypt is that the place names mentioned in the Bible are found in the Egyptian literature. Dr. David A Falk of University of British Columbia has shown these similarities. He has written an excellent paper titled What We Know about the Egyptian Places Mentioned in Exodus. The similarities pointed out by him are as follows:

Biblical Rameses = Egyptian Pirameses

Etham-Succoth = pr-tm ṯkw (Etham = pr-tm, Succoth =tkw)

Pi-Hahiroth = pr-ḥwt-ḥrt

Baˁal Zephon = bˁr-ḏȜpn

Migdol = mˁktir

Yam suf = ṯwfy

I have discussed online with Dr. Falk and am grateful for his guidance. Now I give my assessment of these evidences.

The Beginnings at Rameses (in the land of Mitsrayim)

Dr. Falk identifies Biblical Rameses with the island of Quantir located between two eastern distributaries of the Nile. He points out that Quantir is referred to as Pirameses in the Egyptian texts which is similar to Biblical place name “Rameses.” Pirameses is marked in Picture 1 given by Dr. Falk. This suggestion is credible.

This identification faces the challenge of archaeological evidence. According to Dr. Falk, Quantir was established on virgin ground by Pharaoh Seti I who ruled from 1304 to 1289 BCE. Scholars often locate the Exodus at this time therefore the archaeological evidence matches with the Biblical narrative. However, the Bible also says that Joseph had settled Jacob at Rameses: “He gave them territory in the land of Mitsrayim, in the best region of the land, the land of Rameses…” (Genesis 47:11). Therefore, according to the Bible, Rameses would have been in existence at least a century before the Exodus.

Dr. Falk seeks to explain this absence of archaeological evidence by pointing out that the term “Pharaoh” was coined by the Egyptians only during the reign of Thutmosis III (ca 1479-1425 BCE). The term, he suggests, was inserted retrojectively at the time of Jacob in Gen 47:11. Therefore, he says, it is reasonable to conclude that the term “Rameses” in Gen 47:11 was also inserted retrojectively. Jacob may be settled somewhere else, say, “Y,” but the scribe has referred to Y as Rameses. This explanation, though possible, is less than satisfactory. Firstly, it is equally possible that Rameses was in existence at the time of Jacob and not introduced retrojectively. Secondly, there is a difference in retrojective use of the title name “Pharaoh” and retrojective use of the place name “Rameses.” The scribe did not change the narrative by using the term “Pharaoh” retrojectively. However, the scribe would be change the narrative itself by using the place name “Rameses” located at Quantir in place of the place named “Y” located elsewhere retrojectively. The Bible is an inspired document and we should hesitate to suggest such modifications in the narrative.

To continue with the discussion, let us assume for a moment that Rameses was indeed located at Quantir at the time of the Exodus. Moses asked the Pharaoh to release the Hebrews at Mitsrayim. The Pharaoh, however, refused. Then Moses brought a number of plagues. The Pharaoh finally relented after the 10th plague of death and allowed the Hebrews to leave. Then the Hebrews embarked on the Exodus from Rameses (“The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth…” Exodus 12:37). At this time, the Mitsrites were anxious that the Hebrews to leave as soon as possible: “The Egyptians were urging the people on, in order to send them out of the land quickly…” (Exodus 12:33). Dr. Falk suggests that the Hebrews were located at Avaris (tell el-Dab’a) south of Quantir-Rameses across the Eastern (Pelusiac) Distributary of the Nile. This is plausible. The term “Rameses” could include both Quantir as well as tell el-Dab’a since the two places were located in close vicinity.

The destination of the Hebrews was the Promised Land of Yisrael. Therefore, we must, in the first instance, assume they would have taken the shortest land route from tell el-Dab’a to Yisrael. Ancient maps indeed show that there existed a land route from here to Yisrael passing north of the Ballah Lakes connecting to the Way of Horus along the Mediterranean Coast as shown at Picture 2 (Hoffmeier, James K, “The Exodus and Wilderness Narrative,” in Arnold, Bill T. and Richard S. Hess, Ancient Israel’s History, Baker Academic, Grand Rapids, 2014, Figure 2.1). Dr. Falk, however, says there was “no route north-eastward… that could lead them to Way of Horus” in the Bronze Age. Thus, he suggests that the Hebrews travelled south from tell el-Dab’a to el-Retabah and then moved eastward as shown in Picture 1. It is beyond the scope of this post to determine whether a route existed from tell el-Dab’a to the Way of Horus at that time or not. However, for the present, we suggest that possibility may not be rejected. That route would run along the Pelusiac distributary of the Nile and the archaeological evidence could be engulfed by the shifting course of the river.

Succoth and Etham

Then, the Bible says the Hebrews “journeyed from Sukkoth and camped in Etham, on the edge of the desert” (Exodus 13:20). The Egyptian texts tell of a place named “pr-tm ṯkw.” The first term in this name, “pr-t,” is similar to the Biblical name Pithom as well as Etham. The term “pr-tm” is also connected with the goddess Atum in Egyptian literature. Rameses II built a Temple of Atum at el-Retabah. Thus “pr-tm” is identified, on the one hand, with Biblical Etham; and on the other hand with goddess Atum at el-Retabah.

Dr. Falk then identifies Biblical Sukkoth with the second term “ṯkw” in the same name “pr-tm ṯkw.” Scholars, he says, have accepted that “ṯkw” could refer to Sukkoth. He further identifies Sukkoth with the region of el-Retabah rather than a specific place. These identifications are credible on the similarities of place names. However, as said above, there was no reason for the Hebrews to move south from tell el-Dab’a to el-Retabah. Hence this identification faces the challenge of geography.

The Philistines and the Long Route

After the Hebrews had travelled from Rameses to Sukkoth (Exodus 12:37), the Bible says:

Exodus 13:17: “When Pharaoh released the people, God did not lead them by the way to the land of the Philistines, although that was nearby…

Exodus 13:20: “They journeyed from Sukkoth and camped in Etham, on the edge of the desert.”

Dr. Falk says that the Philistines referred to in 13:17 were on the coastal plain of Canaan. Thus, he interprets the verse as “God did not lead them by Way of Horus to the land of the Philistines, although that was nearby…” This interpretation could be possible. However, it creates another problem. The above directive was given to the Hebrews at Succoth, that is, at el-Retabah. So the Hebrews should have travelled southward as they entered Sinai in order to avoid the shorter Way of Horus to Yisrael. But Dr. Falk suggests they moved northward towards the Way of Horus as we shall discuss shortly.

Six other translations of the Bible namely NIV, NASB, NLT, MSG, BBE and NRSV, translate 13:17 as God did not lead them “through” the land of the Philistines. This would mean that the land of the Philistines was located between Succoth at el-Retabah and Yisrael. But that is not the case here. The Philistines are located within Yisrael though in the coastal area.

Thus, both interpretations of Exodus 13:17 face the challenge of geography. If we interpret the verse as “to the land of Philistines” then the Hebrews should have avoided the shorter northward route. If we interpret the verse as “through the land of Philistines” then the location of the Philistines does not match with the Biblical narrative.

The second challenge arising from above verses is that verse 13:20 says, “They journeyed from Sukkoth and camped in Etham, on the edge of the desert.” However, el-Retabah is located within the Nile Valley though outside the flood zone. It is not located at the “edge of a desert” which lies east of the Lake Timsah as shown in Picture 1.

Pi-Hahiroth, Baˁal Zephon, Migdol and Yam suf

The Hebrews moved on from Etham. At this point, the Bible says:

Exodus 14:2: “Tell the Israelites that they must turn and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and Yam Suf; you are to camp by the Yam Suf before Baal Zephon opposite it.”

Four places mentioned in this verse are Pi-hahiroth, Migdol, Yam Suf and Baal Zephon. Dr. Falk has identified these four Biblical places with places mentioned in the Egyptian literature as follows:

Pi-Hahiroth = pr-ḥwt-ḥrt

Migdol = mˁktir

Yam suf = ṯwfy

Baˁal Zephon = bˁr-ḏȜpn

These similarities in the names are credible. Dr. Falk says these Egyptian names are not identified with specific places in the Egyptian literature. Thus, he is justified in physically locating these places on the basis of the Biblical narrative that follows:

Exodus 14:3: Pharaoh will think regarding the Israelites, ‘They are wandering around confused in the land – the desert has closed in on them…’

Exodus 14:5: When it was reported to the king of Egypt that the people had fled, the heart of Pharaoh and his servants was turned against the people …

Exodus 14:9: The Egyptians chased after them, and… [their] army overtook them camping by the Yam Suf, beside Pi-hahiroth, before Baal-Zephon.

The above verses are followed by the narrative of parting of the Yam Suf, the Hebrews crossing Yam Suf on dry land, the Pharaoh’s army following in pursuit and getting drowned. Dr. Falk locates these four places in the vicinity of Lake Ballah or Lake Timsah. He suggests that the Hebrews moved “northward towards Yisrael as a bluff to draw Pharaoh’s forces out.” Their mission was accomplished with the drowning of the Pharaoh’s army. Then they turned back, retraced their steps and moved further south into the Sinai Peninsula along the long route to Yisrael.

The challenge with this scenario is that the Hebrews embarked on the northward journey (Exodus 14:3) before the Pharaoh’s heart was turned against them (Exodus 14:15). The There was no need for them to stage a bluff to draw out the Pharaoh since till this time the Mitsrites were “urging the people on, in order to send them out of the land quickly…” (Exodus 12:33).

Further, description of the place named “pr-ḥwt-ḥrt” in Egyptian literature does not appear to match with the description of Pi-Hahiroth in the Bible. Dr. Falk quotes from Papyrus Anastasis III: “Twigs of the orchards and wreaths of the vine-yards… The Great-of-Victories youths… stand beside their doors. Their hands bowed down with foliage and greenery of pr-ḥwt-ḥrt and flax of the Waters-of-Horus.” The Egyptian place named pr-ḥwt-ḥrt, therefore, had orchards, vine-yards, foliage and greenery. The Hebrew word Pi-Hahiroth, on the other hand, means “a place where sedges grow” (Strong’s 06367). Sedges are hardy grasses that grow in the most inhospitable sites. Therefore, the fertile context of Egyptian pr-ḥwt-ḥrt does not match with the degraded context of Pi-Hahiroth.

Discussion

The similarities pointed out by Dr. Falk between the Egyptian and Biblical place names is both remarkable and credible. The difficulty is that the geography of the places in Egypt does not match with the geography as mentioned in the Bible.

One, the Hebrews moved south from tell el-Dab’a (Biblical Rameses) to tell el-Rabatah (suggested to be Biblical Etham); while the Bible tells of their moving towards Yisrael, which lay on the northeast.

Two, tell el-Rabatah (Biblical Etham) is located within the fertile Nile Valley; while the Bible tells of the place being located on the edge of the desert.

Three, the mention of short route either “to” or “through” the land of Philistines in 13:17 is not explained. If the correct rendering is “to,” then the Hebrews should have taken the long route southward as they entered Sinai, and not moved northward to the short route along Way of Horus. If the correct rendering is “through” the land of Philistines, then the land of Philistines did not lie between el-Retabah (Succoth), where this was said, and Yisrael.

Four, there was no reason for the Hebrews to turn northward east of Lake Timsah to give bluff when the Pharaoh’s heart had not been hardened.

Five, the Egyptian text tells of “pr-ḥwt-ḥrt” being associated with bountiful cultivation; while the Bible indicates it being an inhospitable area.

On the archaeological front, no evidence for the existence of Rameses at Quantir before 1304 BCE is available. This does not match with the Biblical description of this place at the time of Jacob.

In view of above it is an open question whether the observed similarity of place names between Egypt and the Bible are connected? One possibility is that Exodus took place from some other place but the scribes who composed the Septuagint in 3rd century BCE have introduced certain Egyptian place names into the Biblical narrative.

I’m not very good at communicating.

I allow God teach me in my situations.

The Torah is programmed by the programmers

All religions and these books are program by the programmers design for (now Aquarius program and onward) where they claim all religions contributed to

So Exodus is a program from the programmers

How did the Hebrews yadavassssss comprehend earth during exodus era? Flat, concave cell, globe

what year did globe comprehension happen? I doubt during Exodus era

I’m not very good at communication

I allow God in me teach me.,

who is goddess Atum at el-Retabah; maybe you explain further in your message;

maybe this song yadavass hebrews sung during exodus era
listen Goddess Invocation by Chris and Sheree Geo

Alice in Wonderland always tried to believe in six impossible things before breakfast.

moses killed a person., good guy

go means cow in Sanskrit in India so their breed of cow is go

Yam suph not Yam suf

or both either way spell is fine

you use to spell yam suph, how come you spell yam suf now

If “go” means cow then it isn’t a specific breed.

Given your version of the geography, please explain the story of Joseph. In particular can you explain how someone with no or very limited food, could walk the roughly 4,000 km from Canaan to India? When Egypt is much closer I know where I would go. Does the story make sense given the culture present in India at the time?

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As in all of these arrogated myths, that which wasn’t constructed with reason cannot be deconstructed with it without consent.

Correct! The intent was to remind their hearers that God had involved in their history for many generation so many can drink Coffee

In ten thousand years, what will alien AI scholars make of this thread?

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@bharatjj

  • For your consideration:
    • Exodus 3:1. Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
      • Midian. "Midian is a geographical place mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and Quran. William G. Dever states that biblical Midian was in the “northwest Arabian Peninsula, on the east shore of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red Sea”, an area which he notes was “never extensively settled until the 8th–7th century B.C.”

  • Exodus 12:1 " 12 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 2 “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. 3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household."
    • The Exodus took place on the 15th of Nissan, according to chabad.org, in the year 2448 [Secular Year 1313 BCE.]
      Screenshot 2022-07-03 at 13-17-45 Timeline of Jewish History
  • Arrival at the Desert of Sin: Exodus 16:1 “16 The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt.”
  • Exodus 17:1 “17 The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the Lord commanded. They camped at Rephidim, …”
  • Exodus 17:8,9: “The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. 9 Moses said to Joshua, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites.”
    • 1 Samuel 15:1, 3: “Then Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. …Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, …”
      • My point? The Amalekites attacked the Israelites roughly around one month after their departure from Egypt. Later, when Samuel anointed Saul king over Israel, Saul was ordered to wipe out the Amalekites. Had the Amalekites moved closer to Israel or did Saul lead his army across ancient Iran to fight the Amalekites
  • Exodus 18:5 “Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, together with Moses’ sons and wife, came to him in the wilderness, where he was camped near the mountain of God.”
  • Exodus 19:1-2 “On the first day of the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on that very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.”
    • So, about two weeks after the Israelites’ first battle with the Amalekites, Moses and the Israelites arrived at “the mountain of God” [called alternately: Mount Sinai or Horeb], where Yahwel delivered the first “Tablets of the Law” to Moses.
  • Years later, during the reign of King Ahab (874-863 BCE),
    • 1 Kings 19:1 "King Ahab told Jezebel everything that Elijah did and how Elijah had killed all the prophets of Baal with a sword. So Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah and said, “I swear that by this time tomorrow, you will be just as dead as those prophets. If I don’t succeed, may the gods do the same or worse to me.”
    • When Elijah heard this, he was afraid. So he ran away to save his life. He took his servant with him, and they went to Beersheba in Judah. Then Elijah left his servant in Beersheba and walked for a whole day into the [Negev] desert.
    • …Then Elijah walked for 40 days and nights to Mount Horeb, the mountain of God. There Elijah went into a cave and spent the night.
      • My point? Elijah gets to Beersheba, a known site in Israel. Fed by an angel and rested, Elijah walks 40 days to Mount Horeb, the site where Moses and Israelites received the law from Yahweh. So how far can a man walk in 40 days? Let’s suppose a healthy man can walk 25 miles a day; 40 days X 25 miles/day = 1,000 miles. Draw a circle centered near Beersheba Israel, with a radius of 1,000 miles. That’s a really rough estimate. Google tells me that it’s 2,529 miles from Beersheba, Israel, to New Delhi, India, … along a straight line.
  • Bottom line: I have difficulty imagining the people mentioned above making the long distance journeys described:
    • Moses from the Indus Valley to Midian and back to the Indus Valley;
    • Jethro (Moses’ father-in-law) from Midian east toward the Indus Valley and back;
    • The Amalekite attack on the Israelites shortly after leaving the Indus Valley;
    • Saul and his army traveling from Israel east to wipe out the Amalekites; and
    • The Prophet Elijah traveling to a Mount Sinai/Mount Horeb nearer to the Indus Valley than to Israel.
  • On the other hand, I do agree with you that the cosmos is infinite in volume.
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Probably exactly what most of us think right now. On the bright side, some may give up drinking.

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Might some start? XD

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Thank you for your detailed comment. This is the kind of discussion we need. Allow me to set the frame. My understanding is that the Hebrews travelled during the Exodus from India. They carried the names of the places they had inhabited in India with them. They relocated many of these places in West Asia (when, is a matter of study). So we have two locations for many of the same places—pre-Exodus place located in India and post-Exodus place of the same name located in West Asia. These relocated places include important places like Beersheba, Canaan, Egypt, Kadesh, Midian, Paran and Yam Suph (List 1).

But all names were not relocated. Thus we find references to many places only in the pre-Exodus narrative. These include Beer Lahai Roi, Bela, Eder, Elam, Ellasar, Galeed, Machpelah, Mamre, Siddim, Sitnah and Tidal (List 2).

Other very important places are mentioned in the post-Exodus narrative ALWAYS referring to the pre-Exodus events having taken place there. These include: Gomorrah, Haran, Rehoboth, Shinar, Siddim, Sin, Sinai, Sodom, Ur of the Chaldeans (List 3). The question arises why the places in List 2 and 3 are not mentioned in the post-Exodus narrative in a contemporaneous sense. No post-Exodus event is reported to have taken at these places even though the Hebrews crisscrossed the area repeatedly. This eerie absence of mention of these places suggests that these places were possibly NOT located in West Asia and could be located in India—which is, in my study, supported by other corroborating evidences. Allow me to respond to your points with this preamble.

//Moses from the Indus Valley to Midian and back to the Indus Valley. Jethro (Moses’ father-in-law) from Midian east toward the Indus Valley and back//

I suggest that Midian, Mt Horeb and Mt Sinai were all located at- or between the Indus Valley and Taftan. I suspect Midian was located at an archaeological site named Nindowari in Kalat District in Baluchistan but this precise identification is not robust and another site in the vicinity could be proven to be Midian on detailed study. The distance from Kalat to Mohenjo Daro is about 500 km. The trade between Indus Valley and West Asia used to take place majorly by long distance livestock grazers who doubled up as couriers. Recall that Jethro had sent Moses to graze his livestock and Moses went to Mt Horeb. Another 600 km west of Kalat to Taftan with sheep and goats is entirely possible.

//The Amalekite attack on the Israelites shortly after leaving the Indus Valley. Saul and his army traveling from Israel east to wipe out the Amalekites//.

My suggestion is that the Amalekites were located west of the Indus river—say, near Kabul. The Hebrews were attacked by them as they left the Indus Valley. Then, later Saul may have travelled from Israel to Kabul. The Bible says he went with 200,000 foot soldiers and 100,000 men.

The Hebrew word me’ah <03967> used for hundred means:
1a) as simple number
1b) as part of larger number
1c) AS A FRACTION - ONE ONE-HUNDREDTH (1/100).

And the Hebrew word 'eleph <0505> used for “thousand” means

  1. a thousand
    1a) as numeral
  2. a thousand, company
    2A) AS A COMPANY OF MEN UNDER ONE LEADER, TROOPS.

Thus, it is possible that Saul travelled 3000 km with a small band of maybe 20 foot soldiers and 10 men and ambushed the Amalekites. The word ambush kind of discloses this because this is done when a small number is located at a strategic place.

//Prophet Elijah traveling to a Mount Sinai/Mount Horeb nearer to the Indus Valley than to Israel.//

The distance from Israel to Taftan is 3300 km. One can walk maybe 80 km per day. After all, Elijah was a Prophet, he travelled “night and day” and Prophets are known for such feats.

They may be arriving in the Indus Valley in chartered planes to visit the Bible places.

Who is Saul? Ok I learn Saul is King of Israel. From reading from @Terry_Sampson this took place after Hebrews Yadavas arrived in Yisrael then.
Who are the Amalekites?
What happened near Kabul?

Pharaoh drowned at place Chachran, Semitic Name Pi-Hahiroth. What were the Pharaoh’s army called who drowned with the Pharaoh, were they called Amalekites? So this took place before King Saul of Israel?

Could Chachran be considered near area Kabul., even though its shown two different places but near.

First Hebrews were in Chachran then traveled to Kabul., see so maybe either places can be considered near to each other - does this make sense?

My question is, when claiming near, is it common to say the next place over the same as the place before? Is this common way of communication, because is Kabul more known compared to Chachran? Is that why? Or were there many who died at Kabul too, and also many died at Chachran?

I love analyzing. I love learning.

Actually you’re correct. I was acting goofy when learning that go means cow in Sanskrit

So thinking a breed can be called ‘go’

Maybe a made up joke actually isn’t funny

Cause how would breed name be an actual noun too