Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

Faith & Science Conversation
480

I started with the first verse in the list of verses you showcased as evidence in the link you shared. I made no more of a big deal out of than the link. I just showed how it was a reference to the entire body, and not the individual.

We do choose to soften and harden our hearts. As we are tested, we can make choices that make us worse or better.

Acts 16:14
New American Standard Bible
First Convert in Europe
14 A woman named Lydia was listening; she was a seller of purple fabrics from the city of Thyatira, and a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

This verse does not prove or disprove OSAS.

It states what all Christians believe. That God searches the hearts of mankind. Those pursuing his righteousness will be drawn near to God. While those pursuing evil he will turn a deaf ear towards.

1 Corinthians 6:16-20
New American Standard Bible
16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every other sin that a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought for a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

This is another great set of verses to support my view as a biblically based view. In 1 corinthians 6 it compares Christians, the body of Christ , as a bride. As in a marriage. It says the one who joins with God is one with him.

Then immediately in the next chapter, 1 corinthians 7, it talks about marriage. But it also talks about divorce and remarriage. It brings up justifiable causes for divorce. So those verses can definitely be used to illustrate the just causes that God has to divorce from his bride. If the individual is not faithful, but adulterous towards God you will be divorced from him and cut out.

Being “unbought” is essentially the same as being put away which the Torah mentions as the result of some marriages.

481

I’m sorry, but I think that’s my point? And it was God’s providence that put her there and then, where and when, so that she could hear. (Remember that she was traveling.)

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Who bought you?* And someone is going to steal you from God? Who is powerful enough?
 

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2:9

 

*And at what cost?!

…the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Acts 20:28

483

Again.

Saying God plays a roll in searching out the hearts of believers is something everyone believes and accepts as Christians. It’s irrelevant to what is the part on the Christians behalf on what they are supposed to do.

Also again what I’m doing is looking at the verses being portrayed in the link and placing them in their proper context.

The link used the verses from 1 corinthians 6 about being married to Christ and being one with Christ and said well who can then change that. Well, the same as in any marriage. The same as in the very next chapter tying into that one.

Believers can be divorced from God by becoming unfaithful. By being adulterous and pursing other things as our husbands will break out covenant with God. He will “divorce” those who choose it.

Jeremiah 3:8-10
New American Standard Bible
8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a certificate of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and prostituted herself also. 9 And because of the thoughtlessness of her prostitution, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. 10 Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,” declares the Lord.

That’s the thing about context. It puts scripture into its proper place.

484

Okay, what about the contexts of “The Lord opened her heart…”, “bought with a price” and “God’s special possession”? Talk to me about NT context, not OT divorce.

485

From above,

486

Dale I have no clue what aspect of the debate you are trying to have.

God did soften her heart. We have agreed on this many times. I’m not sure how it’s relevant to the debate at hand on OSAS.

Biblical hermeneutics requires us to hold scripture in their proper light. The Tanakh is not separate from the gospels and epistles. The patterns of the Torah are carried over into the New Testament and the ideas in the NT rely on the development of the old.

Plus the first set of verses about the marriage metaphors I used was from the New Testament, the very next chapter after the ones in the link.

As for the others, I can’t trace them down yet. I’ll continue working through the ones in the link. Then I can begin working on the others you’ve shared.

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The debate is all about the assurance of adoption that educated true Christians should have (and it’s a child’s elementary education, not an advanced degree).

488

The arguments are not complex.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

489

I will though quickly show some more of the story to one of the verses you mentioned. Paul’s thoughts go beyond that single scripture but bleeds into the next snd the next.

Philippians 1:6
New American Standard Bible
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work among you will complete it by the day of Christ Jesus.

The first thing I noticed was the phrase was different in your post than when I typically hear it.

Yours said “ in you” but I typically hear it “ among you”. When literally used it’s in, but metaphorically it’s used as among. I checked also and that’s the case 124 times. We don’t actually have changes in our heart. It’s a metaphor for becoming a better person through our actions and thoughts. So among is a pretty good candidate for that translation. But given the next arguments this one is almost a moot point.

Next thing is bringing up some of the verses in the next few chapters because again this was Paul’s thoughts being carried out further.

He says he is confident that the good works will be completed. Then he says this also.

Philippians 2:8-16
New American Standard Bible
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.

14 Do all things without complaining or arguments; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding firmly the word of life, so that on the day of Christ I can take pride because I did not run in vain nor labor in vain.

A few things to see here.

  1. It says that Jesus was obedient to the point of death and that’s why God highly exalted him. Likewise, when we are obedient , for that is how we love God, we too will be exalted.

  2. It says for them to work out their own salvation. We are saved by the blood of Christ. But this salvation is not given out randomly. Grace and mercy is poured out on those God chooses and that’s those that seek him. That’s why it mentions Lyndia was a worshipper of God. Work is a action. People can become lazy and stop running the good race.

  3. Paul says to hold firmly to the word of life. Why would they hold on if they can’t let go?

  4. Paul says that he does not want his running to be have labored in vain. That’s because he did not want to have wasted his life for those who did not hold firm and so he was encouraging them to contine holding firm. To continue running thr good race.

In the next chapter, 3 we read this passage.

Philippians 3:12-16
New American Standard Bible
12 Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, all who are mature, let’s have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that to you as well; 16 however, let’s keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

In these verses Paul writes that he does not actually believe that he’s taken hold of it yet or became perfect. But that he is focused on what lies ahead and that all should share that mindset. To look forward to it means he’s not yet got it.

So that’s surrounding context. But by reaching out to other books in the Bible, including the Torah, we can continue to better understand these verses.

Well I’ve dedicated over an hour today of debating it.

I will continue sometime tomorrow perhaps with them original verses in the link.

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You would have save us both some time if you had merely read the discussion above. It still would not be a bad idea. I am going to be repeating myself a lot, I fear.

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…having been confident of this very thing, that He who did begin in you a good work, will perform it till a day of Jesus
Philippians 1:6 YLT

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https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/1-6.htm

See Strong’s 1772

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I agree with you. Faith is the assurance of things not yet seen. I believe 100% that God will keep his promise. But Gods promise , not in the Old Testament or in the New Testament, is not OSAS but salvation to those who love the Lord and those that continue to run and finish the good race.

Galatians 6:9
New American Standard Bible
9 Let’s not become discouraged in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not become weary.

Continue to do good and don’t become weary to reap your prize. He warns them not to become weary so that they don’t lose the good prose.

James 1:12
New American Standard Bible
12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Hope you have a goodnight Dale. I’m passing out. Have to wake up in 3 hours to go on a hike and then head to work. Zzz

1 Like
493

Yes. And if you continue along that site and go to en you can see the literal and metaphorical use of it. But again, the rest of my argument makes that a rather moot point. But it’s still better positioned for mine.

494

Perseverance is a gift given to the true Christian when they are first (and only time) born again.

495

Paul makes it clear, his mindset is that we are saved now, but that he knows we are not truly saved or perfected yet.

We are saved once. We are saved when we hear our names called in the book of life. We have faith that god will keep his word and save us. We have faith he will resurrect us and call out our names and not destroy us like his enemies.

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This is just above, post 460:

It still applies.

497

We are truly heirs now and forever if we have been born again.

498

That means nothing to me…

You’ve not proved anything. For a fact, as I placed the verses you share within their direct context, snd the greater context of the Bible, I have become even more assured that OSAS is not found in the Bible anymore than universalism.

But I look forward to you countering each set of verses I shared with their immediate context and greater context. It’s not a actual argument to just grab various verses snd throw them out as if these isolated verses interpret these other isolated verses.

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…because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Philipians 3:12 NRSV

I see no ‘maybe’ there. He is Christ’s possession. Absolutely. (And when he said it – his now, not sometime later.)