An adopted child cannot know that they are adopted and loved, irrevocably. That is very sad.
I know it is possible to be terribly mistaken, hence the very severe warnings from both the Lord and Paul, and Paul even says “test yourselves” in multiple places. There were ‘mere professors’ even in the early church.
Perseverance is a birthday present when you are newly born again. Is being born reversible?
My declaration that there are no conditioned reflexes in Heaven is hyperbole, but has to be true. Genetically coded, evolved pre-wiring and experience played out on that makes us what we are, even with our A-(is for Access)-Consciousness (we can think about our thinking), is what we begin with in Heaven, the seed of consciousness within our glorified brains. It will all be deconstructed and reconstructed in the ultimate therapy. It all has to die and be reborn. We will all move on from what we are. In the gutter. The sanest and best of us are randomly, helplessly privileged above the unhelpably broken, sick, ignorant, depraved of us. All in the same gutter.
Where and when does the Kingdom of Heaven start?
Christianity, the way, the other centred situation ethics of Jesus, was the start. How are we doing? In that narrow way? How effectively have we entered in to that way of life? I’m not interested in the impossibility of failing in the transcendent, but in how I can fail better in my tiny little broken life now.
The transcendent will look after itself thanks be to the πίστις Χριστο - pistis Christou - the faithfulness of Christ. Not our feeble faith in that.
Jesus does what He says on the tin, saves.
Hello, I’m not @Edgar but I will chime in if you don’t mind. Welcome to the world of hidden or unspoken conditions that are all over the Bible.
For instance, remember the story of Jonah? He was told by God to preach that Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days. There were no conditions stated. However, Jonah fled from preaching because, as says later, he knew that Nineveh will be spared if they repent.
Look at another set of passages:
First, the promise to Phinehas:
Numbers 25: 10 The Lord said to Moses, 11 “Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites. Since he was as zealous for my honor among them as I am, I did not put an end to them in my zeal. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.”
Seems like a clear promise that Phinehas’ family will walk before the Lord for ever (although Hebrew doesn’t have “eternal” words, “lasting” in NIV has been translated as everlasting by other translations (NKJV for instance). And the condition or this promise was faithfulness of Phinehas!
And yet, what do we find in 1 Sam. 2?
1 Samuel 2: 30 “Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.
God clearly says he said one thing but then changes his mind based on behavior of those to whom the promise was made initially. This concept destroyed Eternal Security once and for all.
These salvation discussions make me chuckle because it doesn’t really matter what the Bible says, what matters is how the text is interpreted. Look at this gem by John Piper:
We are not justified through sanctification. Let me say it again: we are not justified through sanctification. But we are finally saved through sanctification — that is, through a real change in our hearts and minds and lives without which we will not see the Lord.
Another point, remember Luke’s parable of the sower.
Luke 8: 13 Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.
So, it is possible to “believe for a while” according to Jesus. And yet, if the person is born by faith, what happens if they stop believing? Do they die spiritually and become like the unsaved or do they prove they were never born to begin with? Either way, doesn’t appear that they will make it to heaven in that condition, according to mainstream Evangelicals.
Jesus is not giving an extended dissertation on soteriology. He is simply saying what the external effect looks like. And it shouldn’t be too difficult to understand the distinction between intellectual assent and approval to certain ideas, ‘believing’ them, and the essence of the heart’s desire.
The problem with many translations of Psalm 15:2 is changing the preposition to reflect modern English idiom. It should not be 'from": “…and speaks truth IN his heart.” I like the present continuous tense of the YLT (it is not just a one time thing, but a state of being):
He who is walking uprightly, And working righteousness, And speaking truth IN his heart.
We are a particularly gullible species and extremely capable of being deceived and deceiving ourselves. Recent events in the U.S. demonstrate that nicely, belief in political lies and investment in conspiracism.
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If someone believes that, more power to them. I won’t tell them not to wear masks and hope they don’t expect me to wear them.
Sure… otherwise Christian entitlement would be in serious jeopardy. Think about it. If good works only counts when you are a Christian (according to the articles of Remonstrance), then what happens to all the merit of those good works when you change your mind. So to keep salvation as one of your accomplishments in life you have believe that those people were never Christians after all. Otherwise it would chaos with having to recognize that all kinds people are doing good all over the place… maybe even doing more good than those proper Christians in your church.
Or… you take to heart what Jesus said in Matthew 19, “with men this is impossible,” and understand that salvation was never something you could own or be entitled to. You might listen to Paul in Romans 10 about the difference between a righteousness based on faith and a righteousness based on law, the former of which doesn’t even ask who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. You accept that entitlement goes the same way as that man in Matthew 19 looking for guarantees so he can get salvation “taken care of,” instead of living in “fear and trembling” because there is no such thing as enough.
I don’t do everything my parents tell me to do.
Being adopted is not an accomplishment that the adoptee performs, nor is it an entitlement. Is being born [again]?
Indeed, it IS different. And the reality is, sad as it may be, that adoptions can fall through and often do because both parties can change their mind if they don’t suit each other after all. Nope. Calling it adoption definitely doesn’t make either an accomplishment or entitlement after all does it?
Mark 10:17-22 (NIV2011)
17
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
@Edgar, Jesus is not saying that people are saved by faith and works. If so the rich young ruler would have been saved because he was a faithful Jew who followed the law. Also if the message of Christianity was “believe in God and follow the commandments,” then why would any Jew consider becoming a Christian
Jesus was not preaching. Jesus was having a deep discussion with a man of power and wealth. These were exactly the people who were seeking to have Him killed. That is probably why the first response of Jesus was the question, “Why do you call me good?”
Then Jesus feeds back to him the Jewish legalistic response, which I hope is not the same as yours. but the ruler refutes this with his own words, “Teacher, all these I have kept since I was a boy.” and (I still do not have eternal life.)
But Jesus looked at him and loved him. One little thing is missing. Sell all you have, give the proceeds to the poor. Come, Follow Me, and you will have eternal life.
Many Christians do not seem to understand that the Jewish covenant is different from the New Testament Jesus covenant. The OT covenant makes one a member of God’s Chosen People and thus subject to God’s Law. Entering into the NT covenant makes a person a part of God’s Kingdom. It means that his/her sins are forgiven, she/he is reconciled with God through the Holy Spirit, and receives Eternal Life with God. It is not a one way ticket to heaven.
As Paul clearly pointed out, faith produces works, but works does not produce faith, witness the Pharisees. That is why faith without works is dead, that is does not exist. If human reason does not understand how God works, that is not odd, that is normal.
Gods gives the believer God’s Seal, which is the Holy Spirit, so to speak, a part of Godself. This is Proof that we are saved and have eternal life with God right now…
That was rather my point. Can God fail as an adoptive Father? Erase his name from the certifying papers?
Who is the ‘he’?
Excuse me for saying the obvious, but your answer is the worst possible one I can think of. If God tells you to do some thing then you better do it. If you don’t think that God would tell you to do that, you better have a very strong reason why not, which you do not.
For me the question seems to be, Does wearing a mask, social distancing, etc., correspond to the basic command of Jesus to love one another as you love yourself? The answer is Yes! Wearing a mask and taking reasonable precautions demonstrates that I value my health and also value the health and well being of others. It is very strange that some people have made wearing a mask to fight Covid-19 into a political statement… .
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A relationship doesn’t depend on just one party. Otherwise it isn’t a relationship at all.
Interesting… I am beginning to see a pattern here. Some keep insisting that it is only God that matter as if He has absolute control – some use this to support universalism and others for this OSAV entitlement nonsense. Same logical flaw either way. This is not the first time I have seen the same flaw in the extremes of a spectrum, supposedly opposites – both wrong for the same reasons. I see this quite frequently – communism and fascism, atheism and creationism, and others which may not be spoken of on this forum. Could something be pushing things to extremes for the same agenda.
Nice attempt at adding your spin.
You avoid a few things though. Who is the ‘he’ again?
How about being an heir? Can the child undo it? From ‘the list’ above:
– made an heir: Galatians 4:7, Romans 8:14-17, Galatians 3:29, Galatians 4:1-7, Ephesians 3:6, Titus 3:7, Hebrews 6:17-19, Hebrews 11:7 & 9, James 2:5, 1 Peter 3:7
If you believe that, to you it is a command. I don’t wear a mask unless required because I don’t think it protects me or others, so the only reason to wear one voluntarily would be to accommodate others’ beliefs about them. I will rarely do something just to make others feel safer when I don’t believe that it does.
I live in a rural community and saw a guy walking down the side of the road with a mask on and nobody around. That is not being safe. That is approaching obsessive compulsive behavior.
It would seem that you did not look at the list.
– given to Jesus by the Father: John 6:37, John 6:39, John 10:29, John 17:9-11, Hebrews 2:13
Are you going to undo Father’s hand?
I reject your transformation of a confidence in God into a confidence in yourself by turning God into a magic man… again it is the same thing with universalism. There is no magic to get around the basic realities of a relationship – not back when things when sour with A&E to Noah and not now.
Yep they do so all the time. It is part of the parable of the prodigal son and the story of Jacob and Esau – it can be traded away if it is not valued.
None of which say that they cannot walk away by their own choice.
I reject confidence in myself, too. (When did I ever say my confidence was in myself?) You have heard of grace? Lost sheep that cannot rescue themselves? The adoptee is not allowed to recognize that as a helpless orphan on the street they have been rescued and have confidence that they have indeed been adopted, the defenseless lost lamb not know that it has been found?
Who do you think no one is?
Was Jesus mistaken? “My Father, who has given them to me…”
Did his Father not really give them to him and change his mind later?
Try not to come at the text with a preconceived notion and insist on bending the text to fit.