Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Which Bible are you reading? The rich young man asks Jesus what good thing he must do to get to Heaven and the very first thing Jesus says to him is, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments” (Matt 19:17) … quite clearly, Jesus is preaching that good behaviour (ie, keeping the commandments) is a necessary condition for eternal salvation.

What Jesus is preaching is salvation through faith and works – Jesus tells the rich young man to keep the commandments (works) and to overcome his love of money (works) and then tells him to “follow me” (faith).

As for, “and effective only at the end of life” …
Really? If you are already “saved”, why does Jesus say, “he who endures TO THE END will be saved” (Matt 24:13)?

Why does Paul say he will receive eternal life only after he has “finished the race” at the end of his life (2Tim 4:7)?

Hebrews 10:6 says, ”let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us”. What is the “race” that we must persevere with?

If you are already saved, how do you make sense of this verse?:”For you have need of endurance, that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised” (Heb 10:36).

If a believer falls away and becomes an unrepentant serial killer, for example, is he still “saved”? If a believer falls away and becomes an unrepentant atheist, he is still saved?

Sort of, but not quite. Salvation is the forgiveness of sins, and is the first step on the road to eternal life. When a believer receives faith and is baptized, his past sins are forgiven, but this doesn’t mean he also receives an irrevocable ticket to Heaven – rather, he receives a promise of Heaven, and the promise is conditional.

Furthermore, the promise of eternal life through the forgiveness of sins can be lost, as is obvious from Scripture. For example, Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God; Jesus denies eternal life to certain believers who became “evildoers” in Matt 7:21-21.
If a baptized believer loses his faith and becomes an atheist, for example, will he still be granted eternal life?

Eternal life is granted only after we die and are judged “worthy” (Rev 3:4) by Christ; it is the reward a believer receives as a result of abiding in Christ unto death, which entails not only faith, but striving for holiness (Heb 12:14), which is striving to keep the commandments (“He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him” – 1John 2:3-6).
To claim that you already have your ticket to Heaven is not only unscriptural and blasphemous, it’s also irrational and devoid of common sense.

What does “believe on Jesus Christ” mean, according to you?

I agree. But receiving the gifts faith and the Holy Spirit is only the first step – it doesn’t mean you are instantly given an irrevocable ticket to Heaven.
In fact, the gift of the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn and lost – it is conditional and abiding in Christ and living a holy life, as explained above.

What do you think “faith without works is dead” means?

And while you’re at it, what do you think James 2:24 means? - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” What are these “works” that are necessary to be justified in the eyes of God?

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You are free to defy your Creator - good luck with that.

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I agree, but a believer cannot judge himself “worthy” (Rev 3:4) of eternal life and declare that he already has his ticket to Heaven. As Paul says,
"I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the [b]counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. (1Cor 4).

So to judge yourself already eternally “saved” is not only delusional, it is a form of blasphemy, because it amounts to putting yourself on the Judgement Seat that belongs only to Christ.

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That’s not the whole story, taken in the full context of scripture. Paul was in no way denying his salvation or putting it in doubt.

The Christian’s Confidence & Eternal Security, a list:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1t2vwVIXTdIrR3AE6oXi9nucmS2hYk3F9/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msword

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No, it amounts to taking Father’s word for it, and he is trustworthy.

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So Jesus has already judged you and sent you a certificate that declares you saved for eternity? Or maybe he sent you a ticket to Heaven? If not, what makes you think you are certain to go to Heaven?

Any deluded fool can say “I’m saved!” … like Danny, the born-again Christian who went around the town twenty years ago telling everyone he’s “saved” - he even got himself a couple of Jesus tattoos … alas, today Danny is an atheist. He is still saved, so you think?

David Koresh believed he was saved - was he?

Do you have any idea how many atheists were formerly believing Christians? Go on any atheist online forum and you find hordes of them. There’s even pastors who lost their faith and became atheists.

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That’s not a thing. They only thought they were. Read the list.

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Really? Jesus said some will “believe for a while” and then lose their faith (Luke 8:13) - in other words, they became believing Christians and later they lost their faith, making themselves “former Christians”.

What about Judas? Was he chosen to be an apostle, so he was a Christian - was he saved?

How do you know what they thought and what was in their hearts? Are you God?

What “list”?

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An adopted child cannot know that they are adopted and loved, irrevocably. That is very sad.

 

…being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

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I know it is possible to be terribly mistaken, hence the very severe warnings from both the Lord and Paul, and Paul even says “test yourselves” in multiple places. There were ‘mere professors’ even in the early church.

Perseverance is a birthday present when you are newly born again. Is being born reversible?

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My declaration that there are no conditioned reflexes in Heaven is hyperbole, but has to be true. Genetically coded, evolved pre-wiring and experience played out on that makes us what we are, even with our A-(is for Access)-Consciousness (we can think about our thinking), is what we begin with in Heaven, the seed of consciousness within our glorified brains. It will all be deconstructed and reconstructed in the ultimate therapy. It all has to die and be reborn. We will all move on from what we are. In the gutter. The sanest and best of us are randomly, helplessly privileged above the unhelpably broken, sick, ignorant, depraved of us. All in the same gutter.

Where and when does the Kingdom of Heaven start?

Christianity, the way, the other centred situation ethics of Jesus, was the start. How are we doing? In that narrow way? How effectively have we entered in to that way of life? I’m not interested in the impossibility of failing in the transcendent, but in how I can fail better in my tiny little broken life now.

The transcendent will look after itself thanks be to the πίστις Χριστο - pistis Christou - the faithfulness of Christ. Not our feeble faith in that.

Jesus does what He says on the tin, saves.

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Hello, I’m not @Edgar but I will chime in if you don’t mind. Welcome to the world of hidden or unspoken conditions that are all over the Bible.

For instance, remember the story of Jonah? He was told by God to preach that Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days. There were no conditions stated. However, Jonah fled from preaching because, as says later, he knew that Nineveh will be spared if they repent.

Look at another set of passages:

First, the promise to Phinehas:

Numbers 25: 10 The Lord said to Moses, 11 “Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites. Since he was as zealous for my honor among them as I am, I did not put an end to them in my zeal. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.”

Seems like a clear promise that Phinehas’ family will walk before the Lord for ever (although Hebrew doesn’t have “eternal” words, “lasting” in NIV has been translated as everlasting by other translations (NKJV for instance). And the condition or this promise was faithfulness of Phinehas!

And yet, what do we find in 1 Sam. 2?
1 Samuel 2: 30 “Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

God clearly says he said one thing but then changes his mind based on behavior of those to whom the promise was made initially. This concept destroyed Eternal Security once and for all.

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These salvation discussions make me chuckle because it doesn’t really matter what the Bible says, what matters is how the text is interpreted. Look at this gem by John Piper:

We are not justified through sanctification. Let me say it again: we are not justified through sanctification. But we are finally saved through sanctification — that is, through a real change in our hearts and minds and lives without which we will not see the Lord.

Another point, remember Luke’s parable of the sower.

Luke 8: 13 Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.

So, it is possible to “believe for a while” according to Jesus. And yet, if the person is born by faith, what happens if they stop believing? Do they die spiritually and become like the unsaved or do they prove they were never born to begin with? Either way, doesn’t appear that they will make it to heaven in that condition, according to mainstream Evangelicals.

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Jesus is not giving an extended dissertation on soteriology. He is simply saying what the external effect looks like. And it shouldn’t be too difficult to understand the distinction between intellectual assent and approval to certain ideas, ‘believing’ them, and the essence of the heart’s desire.

 
The problem with many translations of Psalm 15:2 is changing the preposition to reflect modern English idiom. It should not be 'from": “…and speaks truth IN his heart.” I like the present continuous tense of the YLT (it is not just a one time thing, but a state of being):

He who is walking uprightly, And working righteousness, And speaking truth IN his heart.

 
We are a particularly gullible species and extremely capable of being deceived and deceiving ourselves. Recent events in the U.S. demonstrate that nicely, belief in political lies and investment in conspiracism.

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If someone believes that, more power to them. I won’t tell them not to wear masks and hope they don’t expect me to wear them.

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Sure… otherwise Christian entitlement would be in serious jeopardy. Think about it. If good works only counts when you are a Christian (according to the articles of Remonstrance), then what happens to all the merit of those good works when you change your mind. So to keep salvation as one of your accomplishments in life you have believe that those people were never Christians after all. Otherwise it would chaos with having to recognize that all kinds people are doing good all over the place… maybe even doing more good than those proper Christians in your church.

Or… you take to heart what Jesus said in Matthew 19, “with men this is impossible,” and understand that salvation was never something you could own or be entitled to. You might listen to Paul in Romans 10 about the difference between a righteousness based on faith and a righteousness based on law, the former of which doesn’t even ask who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. You accept that entitlement goes the same way as that man in Matthew 19 looking for guarantees so he can get salvation “taken care of,” instead of living in “fear and trembling” because there is no such thing as enough.

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I don’t do everything my parents tell me to do.

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Being adopted is not an accomplishment that the adoptee performs, nor is it an entitlement. Is being born [again]?

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Indeed, it IS different. And the reality is, sad as it may be, that adoptions can fall through and often do because both parties can change their mind if they don’t suit each other after all. Nope. Calling it adoption definitely doesn’t make either an accomplishment or entitlement after all does it?

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Mark 10:17-22 (NIV2011)
17

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

@Edgar, Jesus is not saying that people are saved by faith and works. If so the rich young ruler would have been saved because he was a faithful Jew who followed the law. Also if the message of Christianity was “believe in God and follow the commandments,” then why would any Jew consider becoming a Christian

Jesus was not preaching. Jesus was having a deep discussion with a man of power and wealth. These were exactly the people who were seeking to have Him killed. That is probably why the first response of Jesus was the question, “Why do you call me good?”

Then Jesus feeds back to him the Jewish legalistic response, which I hope is not the same as yours. but the ruler refutes this with his own words, “Teacher, all these I have kept since I was a boy.” and (I still do not have eternal life.)

But Jesus looked at him and loved him. One little thing is missing. Sell all you have, give the proceeds to the poor. Come, Follow Me, and you will have eternal life.

Many Christians do not seem to understand that the Jewish covenant is different from the New Testament Jesus covenant. The OT covenant makes one a member of God’s Chosen People and thus subject to God’s Law. Entering into the NT covenant makes a person a part of God’s Kingdom. It means that his/her sins are forgiven, she/he is reconciled with God through the Holy Spirit, and receives Eternal Life with God. It is not a one way ticket to heaven.

As Paul clearly pointed out, faith produces works, but works does not produce faith, witness the Pharisees. That is why faith without works is dead, that is does not exist. If human reason does not understand how God works, that is not odd, that is normal.

Gods gives the believer God’s Seal, which is the Holy Spirit, so to speak, a part of Godself. This is Proof that we are saved and have eternal life with God right now…