Waait–I think it’s 3 score and ten! But 70 is the new 30.
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You are right , of course. Losing my mind as well. I had jumped in my mind to the next part where it says four score if you are lucky.
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That makes me lucky plus. I just turned 87.
I wish you many more years filled with happiness.
Roy
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Not really foreign, but different from the way we view them now. Both birds and bats are flying and also what we would categorize today as amniotes (mammal, bird or reptile). In Leviticus, these are grouped separately from insects but all three have the same Hebrew word often translated as bird or fowl. Bats are listed under fowl but we then also see the KJV somewhat comically call insects ‘fowl’ before listing different species of insect that can be eaten.
- Lev 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. 21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; 22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. 23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
This shows that there simply are not separate words in Hebrew that distinguishes all species of birds, bats or insects from each other. It is not an error in the Bible, but a deficiency in the Hebrew language itself.
- Fowl (5775. עוֹף oph) Strong’s: Bird, flying creature BDB: collective flying creatures, fowl, insects
So, oph are any creatures that fly. The key word that distinguishes insects from birds though is that they ‘creep’
- Creep (8318. שֶׁרֶץ sherets): Swarming thing, creeping thing, swarm
Where else do we see oph and sherets paired together? Its in the creation account on Day 5:
- Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
The word ‘abundantly’ is sherets, and these moving creatures, or crustacean (that insects evolved from) are brought forth from the waters. They not only flew above the earth but also multiplied in the earth, implying they also lived on land. There is nothing in here to suggest that these oph created on day 5 have to include birds, bats or any other flying thing other than insects.
There is another word for birds that is not mentioned in the creation account until Noah’s flood:
- Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
The ‘fowl’ mentioned here are oph, but then there is another word for ‘bird’ and that is tsippor:
- Bird (6833. צִפּוֹר tsippor): Bird, Sparrow
Word Origin: From the root צָפַר (tsaphar), which means “to skip about” or “to chirp.”
So we have this word tsippor that appears to align more closely with what we would categorize today as ‘song birds’. It is a general term for birds and not just a species of sparrow. The number of times the NASB translates it in different ways: bird (26), bird’s (1), birds (11), fowl (1), sparrow (1). That’s multiple instances of this word for bird and its not mentioned once in the creation account on Day 5.
If God wanted to say that birds were created on Day 5, He could have used tsippor but no: birds and bats are created along with other ‘beasts’ (929. בְּהֵמָה behemah) and ‘creeping things’ (7431. רֶמֶשׂ remes) on Day 6.
False elohim.
So without these renderings, the Hebrew elohim more closely aligns with the Greek theos and brings us back to the point Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 8, that “there are many so-called gods and lords, yet for us there is but one God”
Its not die like men. That was added by translators. A more literal rendering:
- Psa 82:7 (LSV) But you die as man, and you fall as one of the heads.
There is nothing in there to say that ‘watchers’ or ‘angels’ are heavenly beings or spirits. It can just mean human messengers. And ‘chained in gloomy darkness’ is figurative language.
Or conflict between farmers and herders, as Cain was a farmer and Abel a herder. What would be the historical accuracy issue?
Yes, space issues invite conflict.
He doesn’t. “If you do well will you not be accepted?” Cain’s heart was not in it.
There is no problem if you view all kinds as begotten from one kind (Adam, mankind), rather than having separate ‘created kinds’. I don’t equate ‘mankind’ with human.
- There really is a problem, even if you refuse to watch Gutsick Gibbon explain it to you. The biblical kind is ambiguous; it’s not a synonym for Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, or Species. Nor can you successfully slip it into the list of known taxonomic terms; “kind” is not a usable taxonomic term. Young Earth Creationists have tried to define it as if it is meaningful. Gutsick Gibbon shreds their futile attempts. Your use of “kind” does not fare any better than Young Earth Creationists’.
- Here are five “kinds” of Hominidae.
- Here are eight “kinds” of Felidae:
- Here are 19 “kinds” of Canidae:
- And I haven’t even gotten into the “kinds” of dinosaurs, which the Young Earth Creationists say were on Noah’s Ark.
Absolutely not – that is cultural arrogance! It is a different way of looking at the world, and until you can wrap your mind significantly around that fact your views of scripture are going to result in a lot of nonsense.
Yes, there is: the structure of the story – this part is about filling the realm of air, just as the realms of sea and land were filled, with creatures. It thus includes all the creatures of the realm of the air.
No – elohim. By inserting “false” you are ignoring the text of the scripture and altering it. If the scripture calls them elohim, then that is what they are – you don’t get to change the text to fit your preferences.
No, elohim and “theos” align weakly; in Greek disembodied human spirits and angels aren’t “theoi”. There’s a shift in worldviews happening that has to be paid attention to.
Yes, it is “die like men”, and it’s “head men”, not “heads”, which just reinforces the point: these are heavenly beings getting told that they will die like the creatures they led astray.
It’s what Peter and Jude are referring to, and yes, the Watchers were heavenly beings – both Genesis 6and the two NT letters are referring to what is described more fully in the Book of Enoch.
No, it’s a reference to them being in the deepest reaches of Sheol.
You’re trying to force the scriptures to fit into a modern humanistic worldview straitjacket, and ruining what it says by doing so.
Most certainly. It doesn’t work from the science side and it doesn’t work from the Hebrew side.
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You are right that kind cannot slip into modern taxonomic terms. The meaning of kind is what God describes it to mean in scripture. With a local flood there is no problem with all the kinds in Mesopotamia fitting on the ark. The number of kinds is not a problem. Now if there were species that we know are more closely related but are said to be brought forth on separate creation days, then we would have a problem. One potential problem I’ve explained, is that bird and bats were not created on the 5th day with insects, but have a common decent with reptiles created on the 6th day.
It would be nonsense to someone living in the ANE. We have a better understanding of the world now and better language to describe it.
The realm of the air was filled by insects and they had no competition in filling it. They grew huge and dominated the skies before pterosaurs gained flight. Before birds and bats were able to fly, they were creatures taking part of filling the realm of land. Same thing can be said for whales that returning to sea after being a part of the realm of land. No problem with story structure.
People worshiped them as elohim. They made idols out of wood and worshiped that as elohim. Does not change the fact that its just a piece of wood.
I’ll agree there is a shift in understanding, and meaning of words shift along with it. Meaning of elohim should then shift along with theos.
Heavenly beings would not die a physical death like men. They die a spiritual death. The sons of God are heads (or leaders) of men, and they die as men just like the men they lead.
Yes, Jude directly references Enoch but we can take what is said in Jude for what it means just within scripture. We don’t need to go to Enoch, a secondary writing, to understand it. Enoch is not authoritative. I have read some of it and it is uninspired… there is a description in there of a visit to the ends of the earth and looking over the edge.
Evil spirits are not shackled in chains at the bottom of an oil reserve. They are shackled to the flesh of mankind. Jesus, as the Son of Man, can cast legions of them out.
Mark 5:1 On the other side of the sea, they arrived in the region of the Gerasenes. 2 As soon as Jesus got out of the boat, He was met by a man with an unclean spirit, who was coming from the tombs. 3 This man had been living in the tombs and could no longer be restrained, even with chains. 4 Though he was often bound with chains and shackles, he had broken the chains and shattered the shackles. Now there was no one with the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day in the tombs and in the mountains he kept crying out and cutting himself with stones.
6 When the man saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees before Him. 7 And he shouted in a loud voice, “What do You want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God not to torture me!” 8 For Jesus had already declared, “Come out of this man, you unclean spirit!”
9 “What is your name?” Jesus asked.
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus repeatedly not to send them out of that region.
11 There on the nearby hillside a large herd of pigs was feeding. 12 So the demons begged Jesus, “Send us to the pigs, so that we may enter them.”
13 He gave them permission, and the unclean spirits came out and went into the pigs, and the herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the water.
…continued from here
- Gen 11:22 Serug lived thirty years, and begot Nahor.
Serug means “branch”, “layer or twining” so he may represent something that is found up in the trees and or is a nest builder using intertwined twigs. Birds come to mind right away, but are much more distantly related to us. Rodents and tree shrews build nests, and tree shrews in particular spend a lot of time up in the branches of a tree. Scientific estimate for our common decent with tree shrews is 85 mya and with rodents is 90 mya. Also song birds (who live in trees) split from water birds about 90 mya. Serug is a type representing tree shrews. 72.6 + (30 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 83.6 mya
- Gen 11:20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Serug.
Reu means “friend, shepherd”. Who is man’s best friend? That’s right, dogs not only are our best friend but they are our nose and ears. Some of them even help herd the sheep. That was an easy one. Scientific estimate for our common decent with the dog or “boreoeutheria” is 95 mya. Reu is a type representing dogs. 83.6 + (32 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 95.3 mya
- Gen 11:18 Peleg lived thirty years, and begot Reu.
Peleg means “split or divide” and may be in reference to a stream or canal dividing. One thing that is common with all placental mammals is that they have a water that breaks, when the placenta splits open during live birth. Scientific estimate for our common decent with all placental mammals is 105 mya. While Peleg may also be another reference to the break up of Pangea (see next), he is a type representing placental mammals. 95.3 + (30 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 106.2 mya
- Gen 11:16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg.
Eber means “to cross over, beyond” or crossing to “the region beyond”. Currently there is no common descendent with humans that scientifically lines up with the timeframe of Eber. So Eber’s name probably has more to do with something else that is occurring during this time. The break up of Pangea after it has been split up. 106.2 + (34 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 118.6 mya
- Gen 11:14 Salah lived thirty years, and begot Eber.
Salah, (other translations spelled: Shelah) means “petition, breaks, divides”. Salah’s name is another reference to the breakup of Pangea, which the Tower of Babel is also a type for. 118.6 + (30 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 129.6 mya
The supercontinent of Pangea started splitting up in different ways as far back as 200 mya. If we take a look at when South America split from Africa though, that was about 140 mya. North America split from Europe about 80 mya. Those two split ups average out to about 110 mya.
- Gen 11:12 Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Salah.
Arphaxad’s name meaning appears to be unclear. However it becomes clearer if we know about what timeframe we are looking at and how to do compound word puzzles. Breaking the name down in smaller parts we get “pluck or gather”, “flask or vial”, “here or hither”, and “breast or bosom”. Marsupials have premature (plucked) young (vial) that must find their way (hither) to their mothers pouch (bosom). Scientific estimate for our common decent with all marsupials is 160 mya. Arphaxad is a type representing marsupials. 129.6 + (35 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 142.4 mya. The margin of error for this one is about 12% which is as bad as it gets.
- Gen 11:10 This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood.
Shem means “name, fame, renown, or upright”. For this one I had to look at another source for name meanings and then was inspired to look at the meaning of all three brothers together: Shem (upright), Ham (to incline) and Japheth (to expand, spread flat).
Scientific estimate for our common decent with all mammals is 175 mya. Shem is a type representing all mammals. 142.4 + (100 x 365 x 1000) = approx. 178.9 mya.