God does some wondrous things (calling it mysterious or mystical will offend some where they shouldn’t be). We have objective evidence pointing to God, where no other explanation suffices.
So this is evidence where it doesn’t matter what you believe? You have a written procedure atheists can follow (without requiring them to want or believe anything) to demonstrate the existence of God? I am sure they would love to hear what that is. Because that is what would take to make any evidence what they would call objective. Otherwise you are using the word “objective” in your own personal way which is not communicating anything to them. Sorry.
Maybe some of us are in denial about the evidence of God’s providential interventions into the lives of his children. Please recall that it is about a ‘forensic’ M.O. and not replicable upon demand.
You mean the people who have no reason to believe what some book in one of many religions on the planet is said to claim?
When is forensics which is not replicable upon demand acceptable in a court of law? Otherwise you are talking about something not even objective enough for a court of law.
Yes, I wish we had a compendium of all the real and objective evidence of God’s interventions over the millennia. The two cases (two sets of multiple instances) that I frequently mention are compelling to those not in denial. I would submit them in a court of law!
I don’t think, I know. Mostly healing is done by conventional means but I have seen miraculous healing. I have even been a part of it. As for justifying who lives and who dies, who suffers, and who is relieved? I cannot. I cannot second guess God. I just know what I know.
Richard
I know that prayer cannot replace modern medicine. I will fight to death to prevent the willfully ignorant from returning us to the dark ages.
You know this is somewhat hilarious for me, because I am not even that huge of a fan of modern medicine. I think it has serious flaws to the point where I doubt it even honors the Hippocratic oath anymore. BUT it is still better than the middle ages.
As usual I take a balanced position and the different extremists force me to frequently switch sides.
1 Like
No one is claiming otherwise. But, occasionally there appear to be exceptions. Like I said, I have no explanations, nor do I question God on such matters. However, I cannot deny what i have witnessed, or even been a part of.
Richard
Saying that would be mental violence, not part of the teachings of Christianity.
It is a sad fact that there are people in churches who use mental violence. Sometimes the reason is that they want to keep their respected position and attack those who might threaten their position. Sometimes the reason is another type of fear: what happens does not fit within their framework of the world, image of God or interpretation of the biblical scriptures. It is scary to accept that what I have believed is not true and there is a need to build a more correct image of God or interpretation of biblical scriptures.
That is an interesting way to say it. I am not sure I understand it.
So called miracles are often cases that could be called statistical outliers. Statistical outliers are interesting because they may be a sign that the models used to explain the data miss a potentially influential factor. Sometimes it is just an ‘error’, like someone did something unwanted that pushed the data point beyond the normal range. Sometimes it may be a sign that the model itself is not adequate.
Statistical outliers called miracles challenge our model of the universe. Is there a factor that the current scientific understanding does not yet know of? Does God interfere in ways that sometimes push a data point beyond the range of the ‘natural’ laws? I don’t know.
It certainly shouldn’t be. But how can you avoid it when you have no alternate explanation.
My argument is that the statistical limits defining the laws of nature is what draws the line between being an active participant in our lives and living our lives for us. There has to be limits regarding what God will do for us if we are to have any life of our own. For this reason I think the religious sometimes go too far in teaching a complete dependency upon God. It is an important message regarding overcoming sin, but it is harmful if extended to too much of life in general.
Well sure… It is hardly rare that we find variables we haven’t accounted for. In a way you can say that is how a magic show works. We don’t see everything which is happening. Like @Dale is often want to point out, God can arrange things in ways we would never expect.
Mostly not. It is far more often the case that it simply points to an something we know about but haven’t accounted for.
I don’t think so. I think He keeps the natural laws because they are important. It is just that the natural laws allow God more freedom of action than we sometimes realize.
Theory and reality rarely agree. My understanding of miracles is based on actual experience. Therefore any theory that they do not or cannot exist becomes meaningless.
Richard
1 Like
I am not a physician nor a scientist so I’m probably speaking a lot of nonsense but isn’t it true that if God can have influence on Quantum Mechanics he can do anything? Like passing through walls, changing matter into different forms, seemingly creating it from nothing(but not really).
Then there can be an argument that God created universe that can support his actions without breaking it’s laws when needed. After all everything can happen on quantum scale if luck is on your side.
I mean that is just my interpretation how could God do all this crazy stuff without breaking the laws of physics. Do you have any opinion of how would miracles work?
Obviously I could’ve misinterpreted quantum mechanics and the whole theory goes to trash.
Ome miracles can be explained by science (ironically) with knowledge that was not available to the commoner. Some miracles defy science. Quantum mechanics has upset some of the basic laws that had been taken for granted but is not a cure-all. I remember an apparent last centimeter of milk managing to make 30 or more cups of tea. Quantum mechanics would have a job explaining that one. And touch healing?
People will always claim that there is a “logical” explanation from human perception error or some sort of magicians illusion or con, but if you are actually present you know different. The miracles performed through me are beyond my own understanding (other than by the Holy Spirit, of course).
Richard
Yeah… multiplication of bread is really an astounding feat, because Jesus probably wasn’t hiding and making stone turn into bread but literally taking bread, divide into two and somehow pieces of it were as large as the bread itself, it’s hard to even imagine, did bread get bigger after breaking it or just when it was breaking it ended in two big pieces (How do you think it looked like to Apostles?).
Touch healing would be probably easier to explain, just atoms changing properties so they are the same as if the body was completely healthy. Doesn’t seem so hard with quantum fluctuations (given they can work as I think they do).
I don’t really have problems with miracles being supernatural or being normal things that don’t happen usually, it doesn’t change anything about Jesus teachings (it does fill you with awe that God planned the universe so well though).
You seem to reject claim that miracles would be brought by natural factors but why? Is there a reason that would undermine some aspect of God? Probably @mitchellmckain doesn’t think that something like turning water into wine or walking on water would happen by some trick and if it’s done with quantum fluctuations then chance of it happening is so absurd that nobody will ever think that they could happen on their own.
Obviously there is some danger in this, maybe we can understand miracle better by seeing it happening by some “more natural” natural factors so we don’t just say that everything happening in the Bible that doesn’t make sense literally could be just done with quantum fluctuations.
Your lack in this question is not science but theology. God is not material. Nor does he have a location in space-time. He can do anything which is logically coherent. But He cannot do whatever you say by whatever means you care to dictate. Humans tend to think of God in terms of magical powers, but I think that is ultimately incoherent. Whatever God accomplishes, He does it by His own ability and understanding of how they can be done. In other words, there is logic to it all.
Yes, I think that is what God did. In fact I think it explains the reason for quantum physics.
Yes and no. There are still limits according to the rules which govern the quantum scale.
First there is the question of what miracles are. Many seem to think they are violations of the laws of nature, and I don’t think that is the case. Let me recall what Jesus said in John 14:12, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do." This is not because we can violate the laws of nature as we like. They are a part of our very existence. It is simply that the laws of nature allow for miracles.
You haven’t really said enough about it. I think the point s that because of quantum physics, the laws of nature have a largely statistical meaning to them. They are simply not as deterministic as they are often made out to be.
There is no such thing in the text.
Matthew 14:17 They said to him, “We have only five loaves here and two fish.” 18 And he said, “Bring them here to me.” 19 Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass; and taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. 20 And they all ate and were satisfied. And they took up twelve baskets full of the broken pieces left over. 21 And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children.
All we know we really know is that those people were fed to their satisfaction. We know nothing about what really happened. The miracle could simply be that some who had food already simply added what they could spare to the basket as they went around. Nothing in the text precludes such a possibility.
The only thing those quantum fluctuations can do is decide among the many possible directions that events can take. And the fact is that people do heal and get better and doctors cannot really explain why, except that the body does fight back against illness.
Quantum physics is not a license to do magic. It frankly just means that the laws of nature allow for many different possibilities. It is not just a big clockwork mechanism as they thought in eighteenth century science.
“Happen by some trick” is exactly what people will say if no laws of nature are broken. But I say the question is who is doing the trick? If it just a human being doing the trick then is just a magic show. But if it is God doing the trick then it is a miracle and supernatural because God is supernatural.
Hmmm… I think there is some misunderstanding or maybe I can’t follow the discussion. Are those sentences like “God is not material” a general critique of what people think about or critique of my thoughts.
In my thought process God is also not material, he is completely disconnected from reality but what does it mean that he “does” something to you. Does that mean that he created a world that had an action like changing water into wine already planned before universe was created? You probably disagree with actions of God that have logical sense like throwing a ball but are uncaused by physical causes. There needs to be a physical cause for a thing to happen so when you replay it under a microscope all of it makes sense.
But then how can God do something in the world if he is completely disconnected and yet needs to do something and not make it supernatural, what does God change so that it would still make sense even if he didn’t do anything? Quantum mechanics would fit well this description and you seem to agree with this here:
But then, there is some disagreement still, maybe you think that God cannot use something like Quantum fluctuations to cause unnatural events like person phasing through a wall, is that it? Or you say that quantum mechanics won’t allow God to make red ball that is yellow at the same time which would be illogical, then I agree, he can’t make something illogical with quantum mechanics or other natural ways.
I don’t want to start bigger discussion based on possibly misunderstood understanding of what you say so for now I only want to clear this up.
It was just that your example about “passing through walls” didn’t make much sense to me at the time… Though on second thought, this does apply to the story of Jesus. After the resurrection, Jesus is said to have come into a room without opening the door. The explanation doesn’t have to do with quantum physics because a spiritual body simply isn’t part of the space-time structure where the laws of nature apply. When they saw Him, I very much doubt there were any photons involved.
I don’t think so. I think the point is that God created for a relationship and thus where He would be taking part in events. I believe in a God who chose love and freedom over power and control – so no I don’t believe God controls everything that happens. That is not a real relationship with real people, but more like an author with the book he is writing. Don’t get me wrong, as an author, I know the latter is a very fulfilling relationship. But it is not enough. Compared to our experience as a parent it is NOTHING but self indulgent fantasy.
He is completely disconnected from the mathematical space-time structure of the physical universe but NO, He is not disconnected from reality. The spiritual is part of reality. It is just that reality is more than the physical universe.
When we measure the spin of an electron first in one direction and then in a perpendicular direction. The result in the second measurement is only partially caused by previously existing physical conditions. We know this because of the tests of Bell’s inequality, which tells us that no hidden variable exist determining whether the result is up or down. The measurement causes the spin to be either up or down in that direction, but not which of those two. Because of this we know that some events are not entirely determined by physical causes.
To apply this to your ball… there is no doubt that if we investigate why the ball is moving through the air as it does, then we will find physical causes for it. It is only that the precise trajectory of the ball may not be traced entirely to physical causes and that can be the difference between whether it breaks a window or not. Or in the case of a large asteroid, it can be the difference between whether it wipes out all the dinosaurs or not.
Correct.
The point is that God created the universe for a relationship which means playing a role in events but not controlling events entirely. It means that the laws of nature are not a causally closed system.
I would not say that God cannot, but that He will not. It is not a matter of impossibility but improbability. When something is so improbable that the numbers exceed the number of particles in the entire universe then it is just pushing things too far. I don’t believe God has either the need or the desire to do any such thing. I don’t believe God acts so frivolously as if the laws of nature have no importance. God created them for a very important reason. They are necessary for the process of life itself.
Look, the frank reality is that there seems to be great amount of plausible deniability in the actions of God. Skeptics can and do deny that there is any God doing any such things and it is nothing but chance and coincidences. Why? I think it is not only because the laws of nature are more important than that, but that it can really do more harm than good. Consider Matthew 13:10-15 where Jesus practically says that people must have such deniability. I think the reason for this goes back to Adam and Eve and the separation between man and God.