Science and the problem of demon-possession

What about Mexico, a Roman Catholic country? In 2016 priests performed a special exorcism on the entire country!

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This thread led me to write this blog post, where I sum up my current views on the topic.

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Enjoyed your blog post. How then do you interpret demons in the NT? As combinations of illness and our inward sinful urges?

That I haven’t decided on yet. But that would make sense. Jewish texts often understand the satan in Job as a symbolic figure.

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I always saw it as Jesus saying he would drive the ‘unclean’ Roman legions into the sea.

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I’m sort an agnostic about these things as well, but the fact that I know some people who have been present and heard stories of experiences with exorcisms, I don’t know if its fair to rule it out or expect a naturalistic explanation to be best.

I was just reading earlier today about a psychologist who set out to prove that exorcisms and such were a myth, only for his research to convince him that there was something supernatural going on in some of these cases. I’ll try to find the article.

I do agree with beaglelady that perhaps some of the cases of “possession” in the NT may have been Jesus healing someone from epilepsy and the like. My guess is there wasn’t even a word for such a disorder at the time so it made sense to just describe it as possession, especially by eyewitnesses.

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Was it a professional journal? I’d be interested in reading it.

As for demon possession, in poor countries with few services for the mentally ill, Suffering people are literally chained up in “prayer camps” for exorcisms.

  • A boundless cosmos without a beginning is a really big and old “thing”; I think of it as “the set of all sets”.
  • In something as big and old as it [a.k.a. “this world”] is, I say that evil beings are possible, … and plausible.
  • Call me “gullible”, but “the Enlightenment” and modern science (technology & medicine) hasn’t chased all the evil beings away, even if some folks think “it” has.
  • Anybody who reads and accepts what M. Scott Peck, Malachi Martin, and a few others have written (and said) will agree that the idea of a theology “without demons” is not “sane theology”.
  • St. Paul himself tells us: [Ephesians 2:1-2] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
  • [And Ephesians 6:12] “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
  • There is, of course, as in anything, such a thing as “an unhealthy and excessive interest”, but “choosing not to believe does not protect you from [them]”.

@Pastore : For you info.

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One way of handling this is to say there is no reason both cannot be true – demons manifesting as madness or illnesses like epilepsy. Then we can only observe that modern medicine to deal with the symptoms is more effective than trying to command the demons to depart. Furthermore, one might observe that belief only seems to encourage the demons and give them more power. Of course the skeptic might note that delusions are the same way and perhaps we can acknowledge the possibility that “demons” and “delusions” are simply different names for the same thing. LOL

Thanks for your blog post. I agree that demons should not play an important part in Christian life. It is enough to focus on Jesus. Light keeps the darkness away.

Ephesians 6:12 does not mention demons, it speaks about ‘rulers’. For example, Daniel 10 mentions fight between ‘princes’. Maybe Eph 6:12 is telling about something similar, fight between such ‘princes’ and their supporters, where the prayers of believers play an influential role. I see this as a connection between the NT and OT.

How much of such fight happens at the level of ‘ordinary’ Christians and how much at the level of nations, congregations and other groups is not obvious to me. I think that Eph 6:12 tells more about the ‘high-level’ fight than fight at the level of ‘ordinary’ individuals. We can be part of the fight through prayers but are not the focus of the fight.

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All very dualistic isn’t it.

  • Read the OP again. The question was:
  • The question was not: “Can/should demons play an important part in Christian life?”
  • Of course, as I said, the interest in demons can be “unhealthy and excessive”, but choosing to completely deny their possible existence does not protect you from [them]. You don’t have to become an exorcist, but an awareness of their possible existence is not unreasonable nor unhealthy nor excessive.
  • When the Spirit led Jesus into the desert “to be tempted”, did the Spirit lead him into the desert to be tempted by men or by women, or by Rome, human princes, pagan gods, or art? And after Jesus fasted for forty days, who showed up? Hallucinations? or psychiatric mental disorders?
  • Does “Light” keep hunger or the cross away? What kind of theology says that Satan and evil does not exist in the world? Did the author of 1 Peter 5 write: “Relax! the devil doesn’t really exist, the evil one is just a bad dream and indigestion”?
  • Do you seriously believe that Ephesians 6 only speaks about human “rulers” You need to read the Greek text again, this time start with Ephesians 6:11 and then read verse 12.

Screenshot 2022-08-20 at 04-15-11 Ephesians 6 New American Standard Bible 2020 (NASB20)
Screenshot 2022-08-20 at 04-15-50 Ephesians 6 New American Standard Bible 2020 (NASB20)
Screenshot 2022-08-20 at 04-16-42 Ephesians 6 New American Standard Bible 2020 (NASB20)

  • Ephesians 6:12 doesn’t just point to “rulers”, it points to:
    • τὰς ἀρχάς
    • τὰς ἐξουσίας
    • τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας τοῦ σκότους τούτου
    • τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις
    • “the rulers”, “the powers”, “the world forces of this darkness”
    • “the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places”
  • “Daniel 10 mentions fight between ‘princes’. Maybe Eph 6:12 is telling about something similar, fight between such ‘princes’ and their supporters, …”
    • Maybe? Maybe you’re wrong.
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True. Bible includes much that is dualistic, you are either on the side of God (good/light) or against him (bad/darkness). This is quite different from the pluralistic views that are prevailing in modern societies.

I’m against the Bible God’s bad/darkness.

My post was not clear enough. I wrote about ‘princes’ because that is the word my English bible (NASB2020) uses in Daniel 10. The context makes it obvious that these ‘princes’ are not humans. We do not have a fight against flesh and blood (humans), our fight is against evil rulers of darkness. My current (imperfect) understanding is that there is a link between Daniel 10 and what has been written in Ephesians 6:12.

I personally believe that there are ‘unclean spirits’ (‘demons’) in the world. My point was not to deny it. I believe that having much interest in the evil is not healthy. Focusing on Jesus and living in Spirit builds our life, interest in evil invokes unnecessary fears rather than builds the life of a Christian. If we live in Jesus, evil may try to scare us but are powerless against Christ.

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Same here. I am sometimes accused of not believing such things exist. But it’s demonic possession I don’t believe in.

Agree. People need to realize that the strong man is bound and his house plundered, as they say. Besides, the devil is not the equal opposite of God! God has no equal opposite. Saint Michael the Archangel is the equal, opposite of the devil.

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There are also completely different views that demons were and are real, but are now dead. Heiser has talked about Walton’s book a few times. This is one of them.

In addition to that is the work placed out there on preterism and cessationism.

Not only are demons not found in the western world, but whatever you used as evidence to come to that conclusion so will show that demonic possession is not found anywhere on earth. Neither is magic or laying on of hands. There are no speaking in tongues, prophecies, Christians grabbing a corpse by the hand and bringing it back to life or disciples going in cancer hospitals and laying their hands on someone and instantly healing them.

One thing is certain, that Christians do not need to fear being possessed, if they are truly Christians. The Holy Spirit indwells them and will not be displaced.

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Evil spirits, princes, rulers, principalities, powers work as metaphors for the emergent, synergistic evils in our social structures. They are doing very well indeed still.

If I am truly an excellent driver, I have no need to fear causing an accident. Does it follow then, that there are no bad drivers or accidents in the world?