Gonna summon @Jonathan_Burke, since he has some interesting things to say about this subject.
“demon-possession”
…he did not need to fear being possessed.
Invalid conclusion and not based on the supposition.
What do you think the supposition is?
Condition may have been a better word choice – If someone is truly Christian, then they do not need to fear (fear anything at all, not just being demon-possessed).
Yes, he had some great insights on the 2016 demon possession thread.
Fyi.
Time for a trip down Memory Lane:
- Would demon-possession without demons even make sense?
- I think not.
- How about a theology that mentions demons that aren’t or haven’t possessed anybody? Possible or impossible?
- I say: Possible.
- Well, how about a theology that addresses demons that don’t possess anybody? Possible or impossible?
- I say: Who cares?
- So, a theology of demon-possession without demons would be silly theology, IMO.
And a theology of demons who don’t possess anybody would “much ado about nothing”? - What’s left? Gee, what about a theology that addresses demons for the benefit of those who are not possessed but pastor communities that include family members or friends that are or become possessed? Hmmm, could be useful.
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What’s left? Demons’ influence, à la The Screwtape Letters?
For adherents of a theology without demons, would The Screwtape Letters be anything more than pure, idle fiction?
Have you read it? They were fine with people not believing in their existence.
They might be wrong and it is a pertinent parable, especially about self-talk (and where it comes from).
Yes.
I suspect they actually prefer it.
So, you almost appear to be willing to consider the possibility that "a theology “without demons” is not “sane theology”:
I would not overstate it like that.
I never said you were any of things. I countered your argument of “ never seeing them as to why I don’t believe in it “ with well then surely there is some proof out there of some of it. But there is not.
My stereotype is not about Pentecostals. You’re the one that specified them. It’s about anyone who claims to have seen any of those things. Which is claimed by far me movements than just Pentecostals.
- What you said was: “You’re welcome to bring a healer, demon possessed person, resurrectionist, real snake handler, witch or a demon as your evidence.”
- I don’t have any in my closet or garage and I don’t know any.
- Why do you think I should show you people that I don’t know or have at my command and never said that I do know?
- I’m not as fortunate as you; I don’t know thousands and thousands and thousands of people.
Gee, I’m sorry for suggesting that you were stereotyping fewer people than you actually were stereotyping.
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Not a bad thread. How does one bookmark? Ah! Posts only, not threads.
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So then we agree.
There is no evidence and we don’t know anyone who has witnessed these things themselves. We can’t even find evidence of it in this technological age where camera phones are everywhere.
So thanks for clarifying in your own way that no one seems to have any proof whatsoever of anyone on this entire planet.
Every time someone says “ oh it’s real but it’s not happening in the western world “ what they are really saying is that they are applying this exoticism to people in third world countries. They are mystifying them based on their ethnicity and environment in order to create this strangeness to those people and their land. Same thing that lead to Gypsies being called witches and ext… it’s the typical wild litter realms of civil action bordering the chaos of the unknown stereotype. That’s why it’s always “ out in the jungles “, “ a remote village in the mountainous regions of Asia “ or in the savage lion and tiger infested wild lands of blah blah”
It’s never “ the popular rich white girl “ unless it’s the poorest most fundamentalistic Bible readers trying to justify unhappiness in their life by saying well the rich has this and this problem but I’m happy here with my own life” and so on.
So in the same way we call out all these other things that just is not supported dry evidence the same can be said of this subject.
No your dad did not go to Asia and suddenly without any studying begin to talk and fluently speaking Chinese.
No your uncle whose a missionary did not see some black Haitian jump into the air and turn in a raven and fly off.
No your brother did not just break down on the side of the road and hear weeping from a cemetery and came upon a funeral and felt the Holy Spirit say open the casket and place your hands on the corpse’s face and then she arose from the grave and prophesied.
No your grandfather has not spent his life bare handling venomous snakes and dancing with them around his neck never to be bitten but always protected.
If you want to believe in it fine. That’s cool. But don’t get upset when I state I see no evidence for it anywhere in the entire world. So you believe by faith. Then don’t get upset when I believe that cessationism , preterism and so on all proves a theological rebuttal. I’ve already made a post on it and the final arguments were “ just believe them it’s not my job to not believe their stories” and for me that’s just not going to cut it.
I say this often. I feel like we both understand each other’s positions basically. We also know enough that the chances of either one of us changing our minds on this is unlikely. It does not bother me that you believe it. But I will speak up on why I don’t. There are tons of young Christians out there and their only struggle is not looking at the evidence for things like evolution, or reimagining how they interpret the Bible to be more progressive but many are also struggling because they hear these fantastic tales of all those powers of the holy spirit and they never see any evidence for it but are told again and again, it’s their fault , it’s their lack of faith, and blah blah. This subject has reasonable
People acting just like those who insist their is evidence to believe in a global flood. It’s important that these kids don’t place their faith in the snake charmers of their congregations who are frauds.
No, we don’t agree.
- You have “…a virtual trashbox”; and into that trashbox, you have thrown tons and tons and tons of stuff that you’ve picked up–God knows where–and I object when you make unrealistic and unjustified claims like: “Not only are demons not found in the western world …”
- Do you know how big “the western world” is?
- Do you know how many people there are in the world? Try 7.75 billion people, give or take a couple of thousand.
- So Mr. Skov, because of your vast knowledge of and experience with “Supernatural Hoaxes”, our organization would like to hire you as an expert witness on “Christian Supernatural Phenomena” among the several billion people in the western world.
- And you don’t stop there, you go on and say: “demonic possession is not found anywhere on earth.”
- On earth? Have you been to every country in the world and met every person? 'Cause that’s you’re claiming; unless, of course, you’re B.S.-ing.
- What makes your claims even more egregious is that you lump: demons, demonic possession, magic, laying on of hands, speaking in tongues, prophecies, Christians “grabbing a corpse by the hand and bringing it back to life”, instantaneous faith healings, and “snake handling” into the same trashbin, … without exception. And all on the basis of what? On the basis of your vast experience and knowledge?
- Look! I get that you don’t buy into the fantastic claims of “allegedly-Christian” faith healers, and related scam-artists who are essentially “stage whores” hustling for dollars. I think they’re despicable too. But that’s what scam-artists do: hustle for dollars or glory or both. But that’s what Evil does: tries to convince us that there is no evil or that there’s a demon in every bush, when the truth is, "dscernment is a “fine art”, “a learned skill”, that requires humility and compassion, … the kind that our Lord had and demonstrated. Personally, I think that’s a clue: Where there is no humility or compassion, Jesus is not present. But where He is present, Grace flows like a river, and marvelous things happen.
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Tons??? I didn’t know Christians come by the lb.
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Yes, it sure was fun. And the junior moderator suggested that Raymond Brown didn’t understand bodies of water in ancient Israel.
So which one is it Terry?
You have evidence of these things or not?
We worthier agree that you don’t have any evidence, or worthier we disagree and you do have evidence. With billions of people, it should be easier and easier to get evidence of the supernatural. That argument works against you.
You don’t need to know thousands of people. You don’t even need to know one dude. You just need to be aware that with billions of people and hundreds of millions of cellphones and global networking sites like Facebook, instagram and YouTube there should be at least a few videos of evidence of the supernatural that blew enough peoples minds it went viral and was fact-checked. Or you can admit you’ve not seen, and I’ll agree with you, me neither.