Salvation by works and not faith?

Faith & Science Conversation
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There is another logical thread where this post could go but I think it has something of relevance to add here too:

A man dies and goes to heaven when Peter meets him at the Pearly Gates. Peter says, “You need 1000 points to make it into heaven. You tell me all of the good things you’ve done, and I give you a certain number of points for each item. When you reach 1000 points, you get in.” “Okay,” the man says, “I was happily married to the same woman for fifty years and never cheated on her, not even in my mind.” “That’s wonderful,” says Peter, “that’s worth two points!” “Two points?” he says. “Well, I attended church all my life and gave my ten percent tithe faithfully.” “Terrific!” says Peter. “That’s definitely worth a point.” “One point? My goodness! Well, what about this: I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked in a shelter for the homeless?” “Fantastic, that’s good for two more points,” he says. “TWO POINTS!” the man cries. “At this rate the only way I can get into heaven is by the grace of God!”

“Now that’s what we are looking for. Come on in.”

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I know all about Dante’s Divine comedy, thanks to a series of 3 talks we had in our church’s theology classes. I haven’t read it all, but Divine Comedy is pretty wild!

Which evangelicals believe in purgatory?

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I can’t say as I haven’t gone that far into the doctrine. Just knew about it from the book, Walls has another book which gives examples of Protestant thinkers- Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation

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As that includes me, all theology is stuff we make up. And more piled on more is always far, far less. Including Paul’s declaration. Which has nothing to do with God as He is. The warrant for, the declaration of, unconditional, competent love is nonetheless Jesus. And that’s not clear. As the toxicity of theology shows. You would do well to emulate Thomas Aquinas after he had written, what, four million words.

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I think there is a difference between divine forgiveness and no consequences. Also even though I am sympathetic to the Protestant reaction to the idea that one can earn salvation, I think the pendulum swung too far in many Evangelical circles to the point where people seem to think righteousness doesn’t matter at all. It does, and the Bible says our works will be judged. (Interestingly the Hebrew word often translated righteousness is the same as the one sometimes translated justice. Righteousness and justice were not two separate concepts in Judaism.)

I like how Michael Bird puts it in Evangelical Theology

The apparent tension between being justified by faith and judged according to works is resolved when we remember that God works his works in us so that his declarative verdict of acquittal has parity with his work of renewal in us. Good works are not the cause of salvation for that is the exclusive work of Christ; rather, good works demonstrate the necessary evidence of saving faith in the Savior. The final judgment shows that God himself has produced in believers the necessary evidences of authentic faith. Moreover, God assigns degrees of reward based on how successfully believers have cooperated with his grace of renewal.” (Rom 5:10, 2 Cor 5: 10)

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If Grace is like water, how much would I soak up if I were water-proof?

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Please define what “faith expressed in love” is. I suspect it will be your definition, not what we learn from Scripture, God’s Holy Word. If that is true, it means nothing. Make up what you want to believe and believe that - good luck!

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I think forgiveness is what brings a person back into fellowship with God, and it’s impossible for a person to be in fellowship with God and not bear the proverbial fruit.

And I agree about the rewards, just imagine the look on some husband’s face, who lorded it over his wife and did not love her well, to then discover his wife has a high position of authority over him, even at Christ’s side.

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Just imagine the wife’s face when she sees her unloving husband in heaven because he asked sorry to Jesus 1 millisecond before he died. Crazy huh?

Now imagine more evil people in heaven because they asked sorry to Jesus sometime before they depart? Mind blowing huh?

There’s your salvation theology right there.

Go ahead ask God 50000 times sorry. You won’t end in heaven.

Either purgatory exists or if you’ve done am irreversible sin you are on your way to hell. Pray ,ask God do whatever you want.

The theology mainstream Christianity has created with unlimited forgiveness and open salvation is dangerous to society and to the religion itself.

Bishops,the Pope or whomever leader needs to get their head off their (you know what) and rethink the whole thing again.

Then we’ll see how many Christians will there truly be

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I see it like this:

Christ said that those who believe in Him shall have everlasting life. At the same time, Satan acknowledges the existence and kingship of Jesus, and is still condemned to Hell. Additionally, it is written that Jesus does not “know” everyone who cries out “Lord, Lord.” So what gives? I think it’s us.

Belief does not entail thinking a certain thing, it entails action, living a certain way. Christ calls for those who want to follow Him to drop everything, or give to the poor, or what have you; it all entails action.

Now I understand that the thief on the cross is in Heaven despite never being given the chance to do charity work, but keep in mind that Christ ultimately saves and in any other circumstance the thief would have lived a life of repentance.

I hope this helps.
Pax,
Charles

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Forgiveness is excusing or pardoning others despite their slights, shortcomings, and errors.

As a theological term, forgiveness refers to God’s pardon of the sins of human beings.

Only the Bible teaches that God completely forgives sin (Ps. 51:1, 9; Is. 38:17; Heb. 10:17). The initiative comes from God (John 3:16; Col. 2:13) because God is ready to forgive (Luke 15:11-32). He is a God of grace and pardon (Neh. 9:17; Dan. 9:9).

Sin deserves divine punishment because it violates God’s holy character (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 1:18-32; 1 Pet. 1:16), but His pardon is gracious (Ps. 130:4; Rom. 5:6-8).

For God to forgive sin, two conditions are necessary. A life must be taken as a substitute for that of the sinner (Lev. 17:11, 14; Heb. 9:22), and the sinner must come to God’s sacrifice in a spirit of repentance and faith (Mark 1:4; Acts 10:43; James 5:15).

Forgiveness in the New Testament is directly linked to Christ (Acts 5:31; Col. 1:14), His sacrificial death on the cross (Rom. 4:24), and His resurrection (2 Cor. 5:15).

Christ was the morally perfect sacrifice (Rom. 8:3), the final and ultimate fulfilment of all Old Testament sacrifices (Heb. 9:11-10:18). Since He bore the law’s death penalty against sinners (Gal. 3:10-13), those who trust in His sacrifice are freed from that penalty.

By faith, not works, sinners are forgiven-“justified” in Paul’s terminology (Rom. 3:28; Gal. 3:8-9).

Those who are forgiven sin’s penalty also die to its controlling power in their lives (Rom. 6:1-23).

Christ’s resurrection was more than proof of His deity or innocence; it was related in a special way to His forgiveness.

Christ’s resurrection was an act by which God wiped out the false charges against Him; it was God’s declaration of the perfect righteousness of His Son, the last Adam, and of His acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice (1 Tim. 3:16).

Because He has been acquitted and declared righteous, this is also true for those whom He represents. Thus, Christ’s resurrection was necessary for forgiving human sin (1 Cor. 15:12-28). To be forgiven is to be identified with Christ in His crucifixion and resurrection.

Christ has the authority to forgive sins (Matt. 1:21; Heb. 9:11-10:18). This forgiveness is an essential part of the gospel message (Acts 2:38; 5:31).

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Preaching isn’t allowed in my threads. Just to know next time. Im a Christian. I know the mainstream theology.

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All you need to do is highlight it (left click, drag), right click, 'Search in sidebar for “The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.” ', and read where God declared it.

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There seems to be a tension between divine forgiveness and the consequences of our actions. Not a problem for God but may mess our thinking. It is evident that our actions often have consequences during this life and divine forgiveness does not save us from those consequences. The tension is in the judgement of our actions before God.

Divine forgiveness is sometimes pictured as ‘God forgetting’ or throwing the sins as far as east is from west - if you have been forgiven, it is like God could ask ‘what sins?’ because He does not anymore ‘remember’.

Another mental picture is a Christian in Christ. When God looks at the Christian, He sees Christ - sinless and accepted.

On the other hand, there is the idea of a reward for what we have done and the judgement of all, even believers/real Christians, although the judgement of believers/real Christians does not include throwing to eternal punishment (‘second death’ or ‘hell’). This includes the idea that God remembers and our actions do have consequences even after death, possibly even those sins that have been forgiven.

Talks and comments often stress one viewpoint at the expense of the other. Telling a more balanced story would take many words, often too many for this kind of discussions.

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So what do the good and better works of non-Christians achieve in this calculus?

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Do you see how you skipped over the part about fellowship with God?

I’ve been watching you and seeing how you have a lot of concern about the wrongs that we do to each another. Not that that’s wrong or unimportant, so don’t misread me.

I also think you said that you’ve done things that are unforgivable and that you are going down.

What do you feel being out of fellowship with God?

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Common Grace

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Do you? You appear to be confusing personal feelings with scripture revelation.

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On justice, when A&E sinned, were the (immense and drastic) consequences justice, punishment, lacking grace?

IMHO (I can be easily wrong on matters like these), God gave them what they wanted, to experience the difference between good and evil for a short time and kicked out of the heavenly place (the garden), away from the presence of the Lord, on a different place (current Earth), excellent for a learning experience about what they wished for, to know good and evil, make choices and return as a learned pupil forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ and next time obey when God says “don’t”.

Interesting topic, I will read further.

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So what have we all been learning thanks to their ‘choice’?