In what world? Disney I assume?
I brought up my points above. Justice,revenge and accountability are all innterwined. You cannot have the one without the other sorry.
Says who? Why does your personal belief of what justice is trump mine?
A judge can’t let someone free even iff they forgive them. They hold them accountable and they make them pay their price of their actions in prison. Even if they feel sorry for them and forgive them.
A simple example on why I’m right which I have repeated several times
That is up to God to decide, He is the judge.
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So why is God bound by that? When God seems to let many people go free due to grace and mercy? Your question is about God and not some person on earth right? You can’t flip flop on who is being talked about.
Don’t believe he did though.
My example was an allegory of God if you didn’t notice
So now that we established we are taking about God and not an earthly judge my next question would be do you believe that the Bible is the way we would gather information on what God does? Are we just making up what we want or should be base doctrinal beliefs off of scripture? Is the scriptures leading you to your belief? If so, could you present the reasoning why God refuses to forgive some even if he wants too and instead of that he punishes them? What role does Jesus play in your theology? You also mentioned sins that God can’t refuse to let someone into heaven over.
What’s some of the sins that God won’t forgive no matter what? Where does his grace and mercy cut off?
Yes
Not only the Bible.
My theology comes from apocryphal and even some gnostics texts. I research read and then decide what’s the most logical theology above them all. As you know the Bible has errors. It’s not perfect. God didn’t wrote it. Humans did
Same as yours. The Son of God who came on earth to defeat Satan and purge this world from Evil.
Sins which hurt others (IE hurt someone else for your own gain,or for your own bad reasons) won’t be tolerated and forgiven in the kingdom of heaven
No forgiveness deserved for those who do these.
Jesus crying out Father forgive them shows exactly that. It’s a request. That God forgive them.
But if you read the Old Testament the Father doesn’t play around. He destroyes slays and punishes wrongdoers . An eye for an eye.
We all would want to forgive certain people
But this is not how justice is served. And God knows it. God wants to forgive them but he cant.
Not because he doesn’t have the power to do so. But because it isn’t just
The all sins will be forgiven is a typo. Either the authors made that up or the translation or something is off. After all it’s not the first time authors put words into Jesus mouth.
Just clarifying that before you bring it up as an argument
I don’t think that’s any Jesus came.
So you brought up “eye for an eye.”
I’m curious why do you think God is better understood as “eye for an eye“ vs “turn the other cheek?”
You mentioned sins that harm others… instead of being ambiguous can you just show me, and that’s the same for whatever text you want… it can be gnostic or whatever.
Let’s take some sins that are pretty terrible. Murdering an innocent person into order to have sex with their wife. Or let’s say you advocated for the death of Christians. Will David and Paul be found in the kingdom?
Almost everyone here thinks the Bible contains mistakes. I’ve yet to find anyone but you that believes those mistakes are about grace and mercy.
Sorry then I misunderstood. Well you have my view on that at least
Pure,raw justice. Simple. Why do you think turn the other cheek is better?
Well you’ll have to wait to find the certain books or texts that somewhat mentions that theology. It’s not like I remember them clear view on my brain. I didn’t even remember the Bible which I’ve read more .
I wouldn’t know. God knows that. Trivial question. David yes since I think Jesus freed everyone from hell after ressurecting. Paul hmmm
Well there’s a first time for everything
Why do I think turning the cheek is better? Probably because that’s what Jesus said to do.
Do you think Jesus supported eye for an eye and not turning the other cheek?
So Jesus was able to for one David, a rapist murder but he can’t forgive someone for hurting others? Seems like a bit of a contradiction.
Anyways. This is my last response for a while. I have a life. I’ll probably respond again later on this evening my time and then that’s probably all the time I have to waste on it.
Isn’t that a contradiction to the Old Testament?
Since he ressurectted and that’s when he defeated evil he did. Paul wasn’t in hell he was alive
David was already suffering all this time in hell
Well no one forced you to. Telling it like that sounds a bit insulting like you see me and this thread as some kind of inferior . Chill do whatever you want
That is an ignorant comment. There has been forgiveness (and also much lack of it) in Northern Ireland, for example, reported in the media. No, I cannot dig out the historical news items. If you don’t believe me, you don’t believe me. I live in the UK and perhaps we get a different slant on some things from you. Please remember that Christians are called upon to forgive. This can be hard. But then God will be prepared to forgive us.
As you worded it, can I humbly observe that this is most emphatically not the position of Calvinists, Arminians (not Armenians?), Catholics, Orthodox, or any other traditional or historic strand of Christianity, excepting Universalists or others of that pursuasion…
All us traditional Christians whether Orthodox, Catholic, Calvinist, Arminian, or the like do not believe “all sins will be forgiven,” hence it is why we believe in hell, for those who have not sought (and thus not received) forgiveness.
And even Jesus emphatically stated quite explicitly that he did not “come here to ‘forgive all sins’”…
whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
So, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea of “all sins will be forgiven”… this is not a Christian view (excepting of course the aforementioned Unitarian Universalists, and honestly I’m not sure that they even believe in “sin” in the way that Christians have historically understood it for that matter).
What all of us historic Chiristians be us Calvinist, Arminian, Catholic, Orthodox, and the like are wont to say is that "any sin can be forgiven" (acknowledging of course the aforementioned exception to even this rule that Jesus noted above).
For clarity, is that what you are struggling with? That someone can commit the most horrendous, vile, evil, hurtful of sins that we can imagine, and yet directly and immediately receive complete, total, and eternal forgiveness without cost, by the simple act of (sincere) repentance, faith, and requesting of such forgiveness?
If so, that is a slightly different discussion, and briefly I would say that this forgiveness is granted not because the sin isn’t really that bad, or isn’t really deserving of eternal condemnation, but that the blood of Jesus was truly that very valuable and powerful an atonement, and the love of God in Christ was truly more deep than we can conceive that would and has forgiven and redeemed the otherwise truly unforgivable and unredeemable.
But before I go on, might I humbly ask you to clarify? Are you actually struggling with the idea that “all sins will be forgiven”? Or did you perhaps mean to say you’re struggling with the idea that “any sin can be forgiven”?
No it isn’t. And no He’s not. But you’re OK. Uh huh.
Love wins. Which means God is competent.
Ahhh yes. Truly remarkable . Makes me tear. Anyways I don’t take deranged and mentally ills people forgiveness of criminals into account.
You have to be missed up to forgive your child’s killer for example or some other crazy stories I’ve heard on the US. Don’t know about he UK but I suppose it happens anywhere in the world. Anyway those people need to be checked.
Well if you read the threads conversation that’s what I’m arguing against and struggle with
Thought you might find this helpful. Jerry Walls quotes it from Dorothy L. Sayers “Introduction” to Dante, The Divine Comedy II: Purgatory
(1) Purgatory is not a place of probation, from which the soul may go either to Heaven or to Hell. All souls admitted to Purgatory are bound for Heaven sooner or later, and are forever beyond the reach of sin.
(2) Purgatory is not a ‘second chance’ for those who die obstinately unrepentant. The soul’s own choice between God and self, made in the moment of death, is final. (This moment of final choice is known as the ‘Particular Judgment’.)
(3) Repentance in the moment of death (in articulo mortis) is always accepted. If the movement of the soul is, however feebly, away from self and towards God, its act of contrition is complete, whether or not it is accompanied by formal confession absolution; and the soul enters Purgatory.
(4) The Divine acceptance of a repentance in articulo mortis does not mean that the sinner ‘gets away with it’ scot-free. What it does mean is that the soul is now obliged, with prolonged labour and pains, and without the assistance of the body, to accomplish in Purgatory the entire process of satisfaction and purification, the greater part of which should have been carried out on earth.
Whether or not I think someone is inferior is besides the point. What I was doing was letting you know so whatever you wanted to say you could toss it out and then you would know I’m not responding again, so type your response at your own desire because I won’t be reading it. It’s actually polite to let others knows you are leaving the discussion. It saves everyone time for wasted responses.
Is it a contradiction? No. But I’m sure others are willing to discuss it with you.
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