Salvation by works and not faith?

Faith & Science Conversation
42

If you would be the judge deciding who will be accepted and who will be thrown away, I guess very few would enter the Kingdom of God. Most sins are not just self-destructive, they hurt others and often show a rebellion against God.

Jesus did not teach ‘cheap mercy’. With ‘cheap mercy’ I mean that a forgiven person just continues to live previous sinful life without anything changing. Jesus called people to follow Him and that had a price. For some, even losing their life. Jesus could forgive because he took the responsibility for those sins and payed a high price for that.

As I wrote earlier, sins being forgiven does not mean that the consequences of the sin disappear. We often have to face the consequences of our sins, even if we are forgiven.

43

I think you missed the part where in the Bible it actually states VERY FEW WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN lol.

Everyone does that. No one is sinless. You can eradicate certain self destructive sins. Sins that hurt others are coming from your character. And ones character doesn’t change of course. So no you are wrong here. Sorry
Ask any pshychologist or whatever they’ll tell you the same. One who is murdering people and stealing etc etc won’t change no matter what.
Unless he be stopped of course.

We have a different understanding about what happened to the cross then

This is bs. This is generic televangelist preaching. Which is bs.

Show me an example in which you’ve hurt someone so much asked for forgiveness and then you had to face consequences. One example that’s all

44

I guess they mean what they mean for all Christians?

They played they part. They sealed their doom

45

Few will enter, that is true, but we might be surprised who will enter. People we respect left out, sinners saved because the sinners know they need grace and are willing to receive it.
Jesus came to heal the sick not those who think they are healthy.

No one is sinless, true, but the change in attitude is visible. The change in attitude is something that happens inside. When the inside changes, the actions change. For most, it is a growth process where the life changes step by step to a better direction.

I have asked forgiveness after I have done stupid decisions. Those have affected my relationships with others. None of those sins broke a national law, so there were no jail sentences.

I know others who have done crimes before becoming a believer and went to confess what they had done to police. Not telling what others did, only what they had done themselves. They were punished according to national law. The law is simple: a murder = lifetime sentence. So, confessing a murder leads to a lifetime sentence in jail, no matter if God or some people have forgiven you.

You asked for one example. One person confessing murders was Lauri Johanson, the leader of a criminal group called ‘Natural Born Killers’ in Finland. They only accepted killers as members in the NBK. It was once considered the most dangerous criminal group in Finland. Unfortunately the net pages telling about the case seem to be in Finnish. He has done much good as an evangelist after that.

46

Psychology i think refutes you here.Someones charavter and beliefs about themselves and others are so rare to change you wouldnt even know. And Christians are no different.

So you asked forgiveness about things you have done to others?
So what consequences did you face ? Guilt? Something else? Pitty for yourself? What pshychological consequence if any at all?
Do you think your psychological state was enough to justify the pain those youve hurt fell?
Do you think they souldve forgiven you?

And my final question.If they proposed to do the same thing you did to them to you as a payback would you allow them?

47

That is an exceptional passage when considered in relation to Matthew 8:11 which has the same word for many.

48

I don’t know about the psychologists you read. I am just telling what I have seen myself after people became believers. I believe that the positive changes were caused by the Holy Spirit working in these persons, not just by what they themselves did.

I was not thinking about what they would do to me. I just admitted that I had done wrong and asked forgiveness. In that kind of situation, the one asking forgiveness is at the mercy of the other person in the sense that the person can forgive or not forgive, and can cause damage by using your confession against you. The good side is that by asking honestly forgiveness, you are coming to light and by staying in the truth, you can become yourself mentally free. Even if someone would think that the sins cannot be forgiven.

In my case, those wrongdoings were perhaps not what someone would call serious crimes. Sorry that I have not done big crimes that I could confess.

49

You havent answered a single one of my questions above.

Avoiding answering them shows me that not only you are at false ,but you werent sorry in the first place.You just admited wrong because well personal gain.Im sure of it.

Unless you want to answer them and not avoid them this time

50

If so, how does that affect your view of the God of Christianity and what he has to offer in relation to your stated desire for absolute justice?

Oh, and do they mean the same for all Christians?

It seems like hair-splitting, but conceptual definitions are important.

If “defeated sin” and “defeated Satan” are part of your theology, you need to figure out what those concepts are and how they fit. It’s hard work.

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51

‘Justice is supreme’. If that is true then we not only all stand condemned but we will all be condemned with no reprise. Any forgiveness of sin by God is based on the death of the Son on the cross. That shows how serious our sin and the effects are to God. Your question is really about fairness. I can only say God will be just in His final judgement, and noone will be able to claim ‘that’s not fair’.

52

Two things for thought:

  1. Read Ezekiel ch. 18:21-end
  2. People have been known to forgive others for terrible things.
    If we can forgive, can God not forgive?
53

God’s not very competent is He. If entering the kingdom is about the afterlife.

54

You all would do well to read and study the Westminster Confession or Heidelberg Catechism. These are questions the Reformers wrestled with in the wake of serious theological errors within the Catholic Church at that time, and the emerging Enlightenment. Serious thinkers addressed all of these questions, and we would do good to learn from them instead of making up theology on the fly.

It was God who declared the wages of sin to be death, and he provided the means of saving grace (through faith, in Christ). If he is the God of the Bible, we do live in His world and by his rules. If you don’t believe in that God, all the other questions about what sins matter or don’t matter and whether Christ’s death and resurrection provides salvation to all, and whether faith (in what) matters, is a silly waste of time.

55

Only the Roman Catholic church holds to the doctrine of purgatory. Basically It’s the idea that there are certain sins–venial sins–that have not been atoned for on earth. So, the sinner is sent to purgatory for punishment/purification before entering heaven. Only the DeuteroCanonical/Apocryphal books have support for purgatory.

Catholics believe that masses and prayers and the like can speed a person through purgatory, (Think EZPass.) The sale of so-called “indulgences,” used as a fundraiser for St. Peter’s in Rome, infuriated Martin Luther and helped fuel the Protestant reformation!

The indulgence preacher/scammer, Tetzel, had an advertising jingle:

As soon as the coin in the coffers rings, The soul from purgatory springs.

Note that lay Roman Catholic people were the main victims of this abuse.

If you read Luther’s 95 Theses, you’ll see what he thought of indulgences.

What about today? Catholics no longer sell indulgences, but prayers and masses are still considered useful in helping loved ones get through purgatory.

Hope I got all this right.

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56

There are a minority of evangelical believers who hold to this view. You can see Jerry Walls entry in the Four Views on Hell book.

57

I made a post earlier but deleted it. Felt there was a better way to counter and present.

So usually when God and justice is being mentioned, it’s justice in the afterlife. It’s also most never about earthly justice. After all the scriptures itself says that good and bad things happen to the good and the bad. We also see it through experience.

It’s also important to think a bit deeply about some words.
The three main words I think of are justice, revenge and accountability.

To me justice is to right a wrong. For us, we can’t always do this. For God he always can.

Revenge is to return pain for pain.

Accountability is to hold someone responsible for their actions. It has nothing to do with justice really is not righting a wrong. IT’s punishment for a wrong.

Gods goal is not to get revenge. Gods goal is not to hold everyone accountable. After all, he’s a God of grace and mercy. He’s actually not folding us accountable but is helping us.

God’s ultimate goal seems to restore all of creation. He wants to heal the broken. That’s his goal. Heal the broken, not punish mankind. He gave his son for all.

So what do I think I is the most important part of justice in the afterlife? Would I rather people being punished or would I rather people being restored. Back to my original story.

If someone purposely or negligently killed my cat what would I rather God do. What’s the most important aspect to me.

Would I rather the wrong be corrected. Would I rather God bring back my cat or would I rather God punish the person who killed them. I would rather my cat be brought back. That would be justice.

You brought up forgiving some and not others. God seems intent on forgiving the whole world. He can do it in ways we can’t.

Also you mentioned something that sounds like “ eye for an eye “. There is that saying “ an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.” It’s a sign of having a hard heart. To live by the sword is to die by the sword. Even if it’s not literally . It can be in a different way such as a hard heart resulting in a worldview that’s negative, leaving someone uncertain of the world and being angry and stressed. Being bitter and constantly in fight or flight can cause heart disease, bad sleep and so on. Often time people who are mean, or like bullies, and who grow up to do terrible things are also often victims themselves. Rehabilitating and restoring them is far better than destroying them.

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58

Interesting. First I’ve heard of it! What does he say about purgatory? I know that C.S. Lewis believed in a kind of purgatory, but not the Catholic purgatory.

59

What stood out for me is that unbelievers don’t get a second chance with purgatory. It is a place for the elect that basically need additional sanctification.

60

Jesus said ‘but if I cast out the demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you’ (Matthew 12:28)

Kingdom of God is where the rule of God becomes reality. At a large geographical scale, we are still waiting for it - not yet visible. At a small scale, it happens in the life of and through the children of God - already here.

Edit:
Those who will die in the Lord will enter the Kingdom of God - that is the afterlife part. I believe that will happen through (bodily) resurrection.

61

What about the hundreds of billions who won’t ‘die in the Lord’ in any C1st Jerusalem sense?