Salvation by works and not faith?

Jesus did it to show you and everyone the power of God over sin and give you a chance to live a life by good deeds.Not for you to be an *** and get a free ticket to heaven.This is not a universalism thread sorry Klax.

Argue away, but that won’t change the situation. The God/god you seek doesn’t fit the description of the one here, that gracefull God. He doesn’t do custom orders like this.

Nick, could you please explain what you mean by “the power of God over sin” and its connection to Jesus’s good deed?

And in what way does God give us a chance to live a life by good deeds any more than what we have without him or Jesus’s good deed? Some of the most moral and honorable people I know are atheists and/or agnostics. What better chance does God give “the faithful” in this way than they have?

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Didnt see you counter argue though.

God showed he has power over sin and to overcome it,since i believe sin coexisted since the begining of the cosmos(if not God created it and that goes into another rabbithole about the problem of evil which i wont dwelve ).

Why whould i treat everyone right in this world if theres nothing to judge me after?Why i shouldnt pursue personal gain on someones else expence and well beign?

No God,no reason for morality.People have morality because of a creator.No matter if they like it or not.No matter if they believe in him or not.Its hardwired

Shows you how the devil has come into Christians .When the people who dont have a reason to have morals do and the people who have doesnt ,it shows what happens in this world.
You guys have turned the temple of God(the body of Christ) into a temple of the devil.Sorry thats how it is ,Sickening behaviour from christians nowdays.So i agree with you ,most atheists nowdays have morals,christians dont
I now understand revelation and how true believers will be cast out.Because the church nowdays is the antichrist .In the name of tolerance and good will and forgivennes you have lost the true faith.But enough venting

Interesting, … isn’t it? And all the atheists I know are gay or lesbian.

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Good questions to ask, and I think they intersect with your ideas about sin. To me, sin was not there from the beginning, but rather came into the world when we were able to make moral choices, and chose to do evil rather than good. Perhaps that was when we evolved that level of consciousness or it is breathed into us, depending on your belief. It comes into our lives the same way, when reached a point in our physical and mental maturity when we could choose good, yet chose evil.
Jesus quite simply answered your questions here, when he stated, “Love your enemies.” We can choose to put others welfare ahead of our own out of love. And, we should treat everyone right out of love, irregardless of personal gain or punishment in the afterlife. Not to say I always do that, and in fact find it a daily struggle with some difficult people in my life.

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I’ve already presented the counter argument. It’s solid. You’re looking in the wrong place. I don’t need to keep repeating it, as you keep repeating your frustations.

Still clarifying here: What was the nature of the power he demonstrated over sin? In what way did God show his power over sin? In what way did God overcome it?

I’m looking for the basic nuts and bolts here.

(I agree. We don’t need to go down the “problem of evil” rabbit hole.)

That is a good question in light of my point about moral and honorable atheists and agnostics I know.
Why would they treat everyone right, if there seems to be nothing to judge them afterward. Judgement is not a motivator for them.

I think an evolutionary psychologist would see a reason for morality in societies, whether they were comprised of theists or not.

But is it true that it’s hardwired? How can you be sure? Hardwired for some atheists and agnostics but not Christians? If it’s really hardwired, how does it not work for some?

One of the agnostics I have in mind IS hardwired to challenge all unsubstantiated belief. He can’t help himself. Judgement and moralities are even unsubstantiated beliefs for him. Yet he lives a powerfully ethical life–without concern for judgement.

Was it hardwired before Jesus’s good deed?

Could you please demonstrate support for your statement that the devil has come into Christians?
Is that true for all Christians? How can one know?
Are all people who behave immorally at one time or another or all the time possessed by the devil?

And back to your original post: Why on earth would you want to claim a God who offers grace that you find so offensive, rather than the judgement and damnation you seem so interested in – even for yourself – and whose followers are all possessed by the devil?

What kind of God is that? And the mass of mess that claim him?

The Christian movement is a degeneracy movement composed of reject and refuse elements of every kind: it is not the expression of the decline of a race, it is from the first an agglomeration of forms of morbidity crowding together and seeking one another out— It is therefore not national, not racially conditioned; it appeals to the disinherited everywhere; it is founded on a rancor against everything well- constituted and dominant: it needs a symbol that represents a curse on the well-constituted and dominant— It also stands in opposition to every spiritual movement, to all philosophy: it takes the side of idiots and utters a curse on the spirit. Rancor against the gifted, learned, spiritually independent: it detects in them the well- constituted, the masterful.
Nietzsche, Friederich, The Will To Power, pg 78.


Fair enough but as you said

Since i believe sin existed with God together we are in conflict on the thoughts you presented later.
But i do find it interesting that you understand my point since a few here do .

You didnt present anything .You just said God is grace or has grace as well.I said i didnt believe that and im telling you why .You didnt provide any arguemtn on any of my thoughts on my replies to others or to the original thread. But i digress .Anyway

He rose from the dead? Both spiritually and physically i guess.Since he defeated sin he defeated Satan.Thats a demonstration of power.
Its the same concept as ancient armies.One showed his power trough crushing the other in battle no?

Its not but good deeds are hardwired into them.So they do them without motivation.

Hardwired for everyone

Good question.Ill say maybe because i havent looked into it so take it with a grain of salt

Is it true for all christians? No
Is it true for the majority? Absolutely yes
That goes for every religion not just Christianity

VERY VERY GOOD question .I dont know. Maybe though.Its a valid point

The God of the bible in my eyes offers limited grace and only to self-destructing sins .

Basically the God in the Old Testament

Havent said anything like that

I asked you before if any other religion offered support for my views of sin and judgment and you didnt answer though.
And since i doubt theres any ,Christianity is the closest thing to me ,both spiritually and for its historical validation of some sort
And since groups and people create their kind of branch for ages why not have my own views and theology?
You guys arent any better on that . If you wanna call me a heretic then im sure all those branches of the religion are at the same category

Except, as I have explained elsewhere, I don’t believe the consequences to others and the consequences to oneself can be separated from each other. A strong identification between self and others has always been a principle premise of my thinking. In any case “selfish” is the wrong word. My explanation is certainly self-focused, because the impact on oneself is the bottom line for most people. But I don’t believe you can do unto others without doing unto yourself, because all actions and life itself is a work of self creation. If you behave like slime then slime is what you are… and slime is not a good thing to be.

Yes. Really! I reject the notion that either heaven or hell is any kind of escape from the consequences of our choices and actions. So yes, I think the difference between heaven and hell is whether we learn from our mistakes and overcome our self-destructive habits. And thus we face consequences from our choices and actions in both heaven and hell – having reason to regret every bad thing we have done and to be thankful for every good thing we have done.

In those three views mentioned above there are no consequences. Thus I have said there is no justice in those three ideas. What are the consequences in heaven and hell in my view? In hell those bad choices and habits eat at everything of value within us and the result is only darkness, evil, and despair. In heaven, we must not only face those we have wronged in shame, begging for their forgiveness, but I am pretty sure that the process of removing those flaws in our character is many times more difficult or painful than what their victims suffered – like enduring what their victims experienced a hundred times over.

I do not believe in any magical removal of sin. I think it is more like the struggle people go through in order to overcome their addiction to substance abuse. For this reason I do not believe in purgatory, because that would be my description of the only heaven which exists, because there are no people without sin.

What does “defeated sin” mean, Nick?
Likewise, what does “defeated Satan” mean?

What evidence can you give for this hardwired view?

I’ll ask again.

Nostalgia. It’s a rough spot to be in. Those days are gone. Superceded. Jesus really messed that up for good.
But even in the good old days of the OT, God described himself as merciful and forgiving, and that wasn’t just to those who always lived perfect lives.

Ooops. I forgot to answer.
I have no idea. I have enough work cut out for me with Christianity. I can direct you to some reference materials to help with your research.

Sir, I am just about the last person to run around labeling people heretics. Check out my record around the Forum.

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Christianity is like peaches. You go to the grocery store and the peaches taste like crap. It because good peaches are too soft to ship easily. Doesn’t mean no peaches are worth eating. If you get them ripe off the tree they are great. Most of the people here know that the Christianity offered up in many places is abominable. But they also know that like peaches picked ripe from a tree, Christianity doesn’t have to be like that. So yeah, the Christianity we like is different than what you have been sold. When it is salvation by believing a set of dogma and what you do doesn’t matter then that is just crap. So we believe in a Christianity which is not like that. And… your ravings that all peaches are evil is lunacy.

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I thought you spoke better English than me. They mean what they mean.

Human behaviour. Nothing can explain except my view

Sure. He did that while slaying children and women of another tribes.
They deserved it though so I’m with him

If we lived in a theocratic state here in Greece I would have been executed for my views. I doubt protestants have the same attitude towards.

In your words no one is sinless. Sin is evil.

We are all evil.

Lesser middling all the same. Evil is evil.

Not sure if I understand your point Nick, but I thought all this time that the God I believe in the OT/NT is all about justice. It is why our God is fair. No sin will be left unpunished. That is how this world is working and it is reaping the result.
Grace however is exception to the rule and yet that grace from God has never crossed the line of justice. Justice always rules.

Universal social justice indeed.

You don’t.

I’m arguing against the "all sins are forgiven " concept basically

  • Did somebody fail to warn you about this thread? Helmet and working seat-belt required and worn at all times, and mud-waders too, in case you have to get out of your Bumper-car at any time.

Don’t know. I’ve never heard your English. As an American, I recognize that my brand of English is considered 2nd, 3rd, 4th rate in some other parts of the world. So take nothing for granted. Your written English is terrific, so I think we are on level ground here.

Let me clarify my questions. I’m asking about concepts. I have a grasp of what the individual words “sin” “defeat” “Satan” mean.
However, what does it mean to defeat sin? Think that through. Can you describe it? This isn’t like a fight between two men, or armies.
So what does it actually mean to defeat sin?
What is actually happening?
How does it play out?
How does it affect people or our relationship to God, if at all?

And then the same all over again regarding defeating Satan.

These are not dumb questions, although they are surely annoying. They are the kind of questions that matter and take time to answer. It’s easy to feel like we know what we’re talking about, because we’ve heard some of these terms so often, we don’t even think about them. But when we really think things over, we often find out that the answers are vague or non-existant.

Figuring out what you’re really talking about is really more important for you than it is for me.

He sure did.
Did they?

The evidence of my thinking and reactions to views different from mine is all over the Forum.


If some sins are forgiven and others no, where is the line?

For example, if we think that murder cannot be forgiven we have to draw a line for what is a murder that cannot be forgiven. If someone kills another person with bad intentions, that is a murder, a fairly clear case. But how should we treat political decisions that can lead to the death of hundreds or thousands? The political decisions were perhaps not done with the purpose to kill anybody but the consequences can be worse than the actions of mass murderers. Should we say that the decisions/sins of politicians can never be forgiven?

Why would you forgive a person whose whole life is literally to manipulate you in the expense of power and money?

Average wage in Greece is 500euros a month.

A politician ,just a Congress member not our minsters and such ,claims 6000 a month.

Politicians are the first going to hell. No politician is Christian. True Christian that is. They claim this for votes.

Where do we draw the line? You missed my view above and I don’t know why people keep doing that. Just go read the comments.

As I said above self-destructive sins can be forgiven. For instance if I take drugs I hurt only myself. If I go out sleeping with prostitutes I hurt only my well being . If I go out eating like there’s no tomorrow and beign lazy I hurt my health and my character. These sins are completely forgivable for example