Problems with a Local Flood Interpretation

Exile, not exodus. Jeremiah 4:23.

With regard to theology this is profound and to be respected. There is a second side of the coin, which is that more than one catastrophic flood washed the flood plains of the Tigris and Euphrates to the extent that the flat terrain (making the waters subside in weeks not days) and the curvature of the earth left the vivid impression that all the earth was under water.
This cultural memory may have influenced the Mesopotamian cosmology itself:

  • flat earth
  • made from half the body of Leviathan
  • beneath the other half, the firmament
  • supported on pillars
  • above vast “waters of the deep”
  • such that the mega flood seemed to emerge from the ground itself.
  • Moreover sun moon stars all crossed the skies inside the firmament, hence beneath tomorrow’s forecast of rain.
    This cosmology is grandfathered into Genesis. It is clear that a point by point comparison of pagan notions of creation and deities, vs. Genesis, illustrate that Genesis is a teaching story that contains a vast wealth of subtle guidance, carried on the shoulders of simple details such as Adam, Eve, and onward to the Tower of BabEl.
    Keeping this brief, the bones of the pagan theology relate to Genesis in reverse – Genesis came last to the party, while the pagan schmutz looks just like a vile, smarmy send-up of our righteous, holy, intentional, and almighty GOD. The pagan deities made humans after the fact to do menial work. Just as a f’rinstance. They cared for exactly one result: keep the sacrificial fires regular. The Gilgamesh Epic has him seek out their version of Noah (Utnapishtim) to discover the secret of eternal life on earth. Recovering it from a deep underwater crevice brings him to utter exhaustion; he snoozes and a serpent steals the herb before he can eat some, and the Epic ends in dismay, since life on earth is pointless. Pagan deities? Meh. GOD? Great love and tenderness.
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@JoelHinrichs have you heard anything about concave cell earth? I’m curious as you know about flat earth.

I know nothing about “flat” earth. Some areas are so nearly level as to be, relative to the curved surface of the sphere, at an unchanging distance from the center i.e. “relatively flat.”

There are so many incongruities in the Ark story that it amazes me that people want to take it literally. Apart from the sheer dynamics of trying to fit at least two of every creature into a container, and the false definition of a rainbow… any amphibious creature would not be affected and would therefore have taken over the world by sheer population numbers.
Furthermore, although there are other records of a massive flood, they do not seem to correlate in time.
Genesis 1-11 is clearly not meant to be read as historical fact so why is anyone still trying to do so?

Richard

I’m pretty sure all life , including amphibious and marine life, would have been affected big time. I think evening you were in the ark, the amount of water that would be required to cover the entire planet several miles deep over the highest mountains would have had to come from so deep in the earth it would be boiling hot flooding. I don’t remember the math, but I watched a video once that talked about pressure, various sizes of holes wster would be coming out, steam and ect and it stated all life, even life in the ark, would have been killed by the pressure and heat of the water.

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Stories definitely acquire a life of their own even when the begin with real people and events.

If you are going to get technical, even if you melted the polar ice there would not be enough water to cover the highest mountains and the water table under the earth could not possibly burst upwards.
More importantly how on earth would Noah collect every arachnid, and insect let alone anything from distant continents (and put them back). Furthermore, there is no way the disperate human genomes could derive from 6, let alone one (Adam and Eve) pairing.

The whole thing is physiologically impossible. Okay, so, in theory, God can do anything, but this goes beyond all reason. Besides, it is based on a view of God that is not consistent with the rest of Scripture, certainly the New Testament.

Genesis can’t account for the Dinosaur age, nor the dating of minerals and rock formations.

Why must people try and make Scripture into something it is not?

Richard

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Delighted to see that you’ve seen sense at last Richard. What’s the story?

I too don’t know much. But I do have questions, about concave cell earth. I grab a drawing online., not mine., and I quickly placed land color green any where. I wanted to show how land is on the inner edge. Earth is like a cell and us spirit soul can leave this cell. I wonder if there’s lots of cells we can visit, earth is one cell, that we’re physically in now. Oh here’s a video about Unifying Gravity, Magnetism, Electricity & Dielectricity as ONE THING ONLY and what are your thoughts. Unifying Gravity, Magnetism, Electricity & Dielectricity as ONE THING ONLY - YouTube

Added edit: Oh spiritual note I want to add., I allow unconditional love in me teach me., the reason why I want to add this here, is cause purpose is a being who lives in me and me having a relationship with light, purpose, unconditional love spirit who lives in me; that’s the actual purpose that’s not fragile which is a relationship., does that make sense? The actual relationship, is a sense of purpose. Can you relate?

Oh one more thing is I can be wrong., I learn from my errors too., and it’s ok to be wrong., I’m not relying on my abilities, as I’m responder middle, as light’s abilities or unconditional love abilities is true time true currency exchange., however I love learning which is relationship with light a deeper understanding., does this make sense., can you relate?

Oh another edit added., we all carry an inner ‘I’ and people uses their religions to help them connect to inner ‘I’ that we all carry. This helps me when I sense a person with their religion, as their religion helps them connect to the inner ‘I’ we all carry. I do think people created their laws and attach their laws to their name of God. Ok I hope this helps as I keep adding to. So what is this story of this flood., what if this flood was only in a location and the story grown bigger and bigger as this story was passed through oral speech. Ok enough of my added edits. Nice to meet you and I love learning and exploring ideas.

It is generally assumed that the Flood took place in Sumer. One major support for this thesis is Gilgamesh. I find that the Gilgamesh Flood did NOT take place in Sumer.
First part of the Legend tells of the journey of Gilgamesh from Sumer to Dilmun to meet with Utnapishtim: “Gilgamesh turned “his step toward Utnapishtim…who lives a pious life in fair Dilmun where the morning sun arises…” (Interfaith Online, Epic of Gilgamesh , Epic of Gilgamesh : Interfaith, Column I, Tablet IX).

Gilgamesh travelled from Sumer to Dilmun. Archaeologist and scholar of Sumerian language Samuel Noah Kramer suggests that Dilmun may be the name by which the Sumerians called the Indus Valley. The phrase “where the morning sun rises confirms that Indus Valley lying to the east may be indicated; “I… came up with the tentative hypothesis that Dilmun, a land mentioned frequently in the Sumerian texts and glorified in Sumerian myth, may turn out to be the Indus land or at least some part of it” (Kramer, Samuel Noah, The Indus Civilization and Dilmun, the Sumerian Paradise Land, Expedition, Spring 1964, www.penn.museum/documents/publications/…/6-3/The%20Indus.pdf, Retrieved July 28, 2015).

This suggests that Gilgamesh travelled from Sumer to the Indus Valley. Trade is attested between the two civilizations by the sea route on the Arabian Sea at that time: “It is generally assumed that most trade between the Indus Valley (ancient Meluhha?) and western neighbors proceeded up the Persian Gulf rather than overland. Although there is no incontrovertible proof that this was indeed the case, the distribution of Indus-type artefacts on the Oman peninsula, on Bahrain and in southern Mesopotamia makes it plausible that a series of maritime stages linked the Indus Valley and the Gulf region” (Encyclopedia Iranica, Maritime Trade I. Pre-Islamic Period, MARITIME TRADE i. PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD – Encyclopaedia Iranica, Retrieved July 1, 2017.

The Legend says he landed at the “base of Mount Mashu” (Column II, Tablet IX.) The Legend then tells of him going to the “hills of Utnapishtim” to meet with Utnapishtim (Column III, Tablet X). Both these descriptions tell of a mountain in Dilmun.

Here Utnapishtim described the Flood as follows:

High up the constant Euphrates there rests a place you call Shuruppak where gods and goddesses recline. Then came the flood, sent by gods’ intent (Column I, Tablet XI.).

Then [Utnapishtim escaped the Flood on a boat which] “stuck fast beside Mt. Nimush” ( Column III, Tablet XI.).

Then with his wife [Utnapishtim] was deified and sent to rule the place where rivers start ( Column IV, Tablet XI).

Constant Euphrates River. There are indications in the Legend that there were two rivers known by the name Euphrates. Before embarking for Dilmun, Gilgamesh and his friend Enkidu once washed their hands in the Euphrates River indicating that a river of this name flowed in Sumer: “They “absolved their bloody hands in the forgiving river, the deep, eternal Euphrates that does not change” (Tablet VI). Then Enkidu died. At this time, Gilgamesh mourned “as does the true Euphrates eternal and silent” (The “great brown god… today mourns for you as does the true Euphrates eternal and silent” , Column I, Tablet VIII). The adjective “true” is significant. It could mean there were two rivers of this name. One was the “untrue” Euphrates located in Sumer in which Gilgamesh had washed his hands; the other was the “true” Euphrates River located elsewhere. This “true Euphrates” could be located in the Indus Valley. Thus, when Utnapishtim said that the Flood took place on the Euphrates River, he could have meant that the Flood took place on the “true” Euphrates River of the Indus Valley.

Another text in the ancient literature of Sumer is the “Instructions of Shuruppak” (University of Oxford, The instructions of Shuruppag: translation, The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature, The instructions of Shuruppag: translation, Retrieved September 25, 2016, Verse 1-13). This suggests that the name Shuruppak had a wider presence in Sumer. However, this text says:

In those days, in those far remote days, in those nights, in those faraway nights, in those years, in those far remote years, at that time the wise one… lived in the Land… (Verse 1-13.)

This legend places triple stress on the remoteness of time and mentions a nondescript “Land.” This remoteness could refer to the Indus Valley.

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Maybe you didn’t understand me before?

No u turns here.

Richard

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My first thought is I wish people would stop watching such videos on YouTube. First of all, electromagnetism is already a thing where electricity and magnetism are united. Maxwell’s equations look like this:

image

And it’s easy to add in a dialectic medium, here’s one such example:

So that’s three of the four things united. Nobody knows how to unite those three with gravity yet, including this YouTuber. If he actually did, then he would be on his way to Stockholm to collect his Nobel prize. We can infer therefore he is either lying or delusional. After watching his video it’s probably the latter unfortunately. It is a good sign that he is a joke as he casually dismisses general relativity as if it’s not a thing. YOU CAN’T JUST DO THAT lol.

Here’s a small example of some of the attempts of actual physicists to replace or improve GR (note the math and complexity of trying to replace it):

They all fail in various ways to describe the real universe as good as general relativity. As in, there are a lot of observations and evidence that affirm general relativity. And if this guy thinks that general relativity is not extremely well tested and he is definitely either delusional or lying or both.

Anyways that is just one way that you can tell that maker of YouTube video has no idea what he’s talking about. He spits out a lot of words but as someone who has PhD in physics myself, a lot of the words don’t make a lot of sense when combined the way he does it. Reminds me a bit of this clip:

Sorry if that’s a bit harsh, haven’t had morning coffee yet :grimacing:. If there is something specific you’d like to talk about from the video though I’m more than happy to sit down and walk through something I just don’t have time to comment on dozens and dozens of misleading or wrong statements.

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@pevaquark my apologies about misleading my message that isn’t on topic about Noah Flood: However due to Flood is of environment., so could be of topic how does floods happen? Perhaps that’s what led me go off topic and those ideas and video. What advice do you have for me to stay on topic? I’m asking everyone as I’m gathering suggestions, and learning how to stay on topic.

I will read your message again, as what you shown is extremely interesting. I will enjoy this reading., thank you. I do appreciate you watching that video, my first question would be, how come that video makes a lot of sense to me, is it cause I lack knowledge, so that causes me to get fixated to that video? Maybe we could continue this, that you shared in your message in another thread, so I can practice staying on topic here about Noah flood. What are your thoughts about this, continue this on another thread? You can answer my first question there., you want to?

My apologies to anyone in this thread for going off topic.

I will go back on topic about Noah flood in this thread. Let me explain my journey.

  • Sept. 22, 2022, first day learning from suggestions on how to stay on topic.

  • And I have been on topic so far sense Sept. 22, 2022, As I use these suggestions, I have a sense of achievement.

  • These messages from me, in this thread are before September 22, 2022. Before learning how to stay on topic.

I was interacting with @JoelHinrichs in this thread as he shared about flat earth and I’m into concave cell earth. My failure was I didn’t stay on topic.

Now in this thread, I’ll be on topic from day Sept 25 2022 forward

I think the Noah flood is local
There’s Meena community who knows of local flood located at Jalore

Yes I think the Noah flood was local

@bharatjj how far down was this bowl that gather this flood in Jalore? What was the soil like there and the land scape that would cause such a flood?

@riversea

It is not very difficult to unite gravity and electromagnetism into one theory. Kaluza and Klein did this by writing General Relativity in five dimensions back in 1926. Likewise electromagnetism was united with the nuclear forces in a quantum field theory. So that is three forces united from one direction and four forces united from the other direction. Though… electrical and magnetic forces were united so long ago these are often counted as a single force. The trouble is making these two different directions of unification meet up in the middle to unite all five (or four) forces. String Theory was a very promising, but has proven to be missing some crucial pieces in order to work or find experimental verification.

Another part of the puzzle are some failures in cosmology and gravitation which are pointed to by terms like “dark matter” and “dark energy.” You can think of the use of the word “dark” as dark like fudge because these are frankly big fudge factors to make the theories work somewhat but these frankly remind me a lot of the epicycles used to make the Ptolemaic system work in the face of increasing discrepancies. But media which describes this as a failure of cosmology and physics is unreasonable. Frankly these kinds of puzzles and discrepancies are very welcome in science because they are clues – the same kind of puzzles and clues which led to big discoveries like relativity and quantum theories. The fact that these theories relativity and quantum work is not in the least bit diminished by our desire to unite everything in to a single theory. I am reminded of that Beatles song “you don’t always get what you want” which doesn’t change the fact that these theories gives us something “we need.”

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That was the Stones, but good illustration otherwise. My kids still cringe when I sing that, as it was a common refrain in their childhood in response to their demands.

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Dark Matter is real. What do scientists know about it? This short video from the American Museum of Natural History provides an explanation.

NASA has some articles about dark matter

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Strong historical / geographical evidence details flood debris in Mesopotamia as mounds 11 feet thick dating to 2906 BCE. The area between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers was a vast and nearly flat flood plain. A flood capable of leaving debris mounds this size would have hidden the horizon due to the curvature of the earth, thus remembered as “covering all the earth.” It would have raised waters up to 10 meters deep over most of the land, and taken weeks to drain. The forerunner was likely a great flood on the higher country to the north and west of Mesopotamia - loading up the water table, springs would have come up, leading to the interpretation that “waters of the deep” underlay all the earth. Three Semitic flood legends, in Babylon, Sumer, and Akkadia, each reflect this interpretation. Genesis does not bother to rebut the fantastical elements such as covering the mountain tops or waters of the deep rising up. Its critical difference is God’s self-reveal as almighty (speaking the universe into being, starting with verse 3), as intentional, creating the universe for man whereas the pagan legends proposed lazy gods who murdered one of their number to mix blood with dust to make seven breeding pairs of droids - er, humans. The labor of that exhausted them. The world could make the pagan deities bleed, starve, and drown, where God in Genesis is master of all things, needing nothing, and giving life to humanity out of love not desperation.

Yes! Everybody, watch that video. Good explanation of a fudge factor. LOL It is some unknown thing needed to make the equations work. Some strange unknown particle? Could be. But it could also be that the equations are just wrong. An unknown particle which doesn’t react with any other particle is our best guess. But without any actual evidence, a guess is what it remains.

Many experiments to directly detect and study dark matter particles are being actively undertaken, but none have yet succeeded.

Although the scientific community generally accepts dark matter’s existence,[17] some astrophysicists, intrigued by specific observations that are not well-explained by ordinary dark matter, argue for various modifications of the standard laws of general relativity.

Would love this to be some supersymmetric particle which we haven’t been able to find in order to support string theory. But this could just be wishful thinking.

Actually Wikipedia does a better job than than the NASA video at defending the unknown particle idea with a number of examples which present difficulties for the idea altering the equations of gravity. But the possibilities are just too numerous without actual evidence. Off the top of my head… an alteration of the equations could allow a colder variation of neutrinos which would account for dark matter.

This is important evidence. However, we need to compare whether similar evidence is available from the Indus Valley. Please see this paper.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1scOUvLoONdx0pP1C93HtSAbXzjl5NX1H/view?usp=sharing
We have evidence of floods beginning 5kya here.
Then we must compare evidence from names, local texts and living traditions.
Names: 1. Sumer Ararat. India Aravalli Mountains. 2. Sumer No Noah. Indus: Noah-Manoah (ancestor of Noah)-Manu.
Texts: Sumer: (I dont know if a parallelFlood Legend exists). Indus: The story of fish incarnation runs parallel. Seven monks were saved on the boat, etc.
Living Traditions: Sumer (None that I know of). Indus: The Meena community says they are descendants of Manu.
Thus, on a comparative basis, the case for Indus is stronger. + Gilgamesh tells of Floods in Dilmun, not Sumer.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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