What happens when the carpenter dies? His craftsmanship continues to exist. What would happen if God ceased to exist, so to speak and if I can make such a blasphemous suggestion for the sake of argument? So would everything else that he had created “to exist independently.”
I believe in a God who can and does make things with substance which can last (but then I also believe in a God which is necessary rather than contingent and therefore your supposition is impossible). God is not just a dreamer who could frankly be anyone. Otherwise it reminds me of the comment made by John Constantine (played by Keanu Reeves) in the movie by the same name, “God is a kid with an ant farm, lady.” Though I guess that would be more like option 5 than 1.
As for Hebrews 1:3 I am reminded of Flat Earthers who quote passages about table tops and creationists who quote other passages from people who had little notion of the real nature of the universe. Just as writers of the Bible could not see the whole globe of the earth in orbit around the sun, or the billions of years in which life and the universe developed, so also they did not understand the laws of nature by which things operated. To be sure all the laws of nature are the creation and ultimately an agency of God, but they show that God has a bit more sophistication and competence than the inept carpenter.
Hebrews 1:3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power…
This is part of an introduction to a discussion of Christ and not an attempt to understand the nature of the existence of the universe. While in other passage I would say this is more about keeping the earth safe for the development of life and his children. In this case I would say this is more about establishing the laws of nature by which the universe exists and operates.
As do I.
Of course it is, as I indicated.
No problem.
This is what the LORD says: If I have not established My covenant with the day and the night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth…
True that.
- People can change opinion.
- On a number of Biblical issues I have decided to remain undecided
- I have decided to drop the term “free will”, instead I use “will” only in this type of discussions. Obviously people have an own will.
Free will is important. Has we can understand God. Why is there confusing in many things ?
Wait a minute! Jude or Judas is not responsible for the death of Jesus. The religious leaders who saw Him as a threat to their authority and self righteousness, the political leaders who saw Him as a threat to their self aggrandizement, the crowd who wanted the power of God’s people, but not the responsibility, and the disciples who were clueless. In fact everyone is responsible for the death of Jesus, and we all need His forgiveness.
Yes, we cannot attain the glory of God, but that does not mean that God cannot give us a share of God’s glory. God sent the Savior, Jesus the Messiah, not to destroy us because of our sin, but to forgive us and reconcile us to God through the Holy Spirit.
Thus we shall in God’s Love and goodness and glory, because humans can be in right relationship with the Father through the Son and the Spirit.
We are forgiven not because there is something we have done to earn that forgiveness, but because we recognize that there is NOTHING we can do earn forgiveness. What we can do is to stop trying to earn forgiveness and allow Jesus to guide our lives, so it is not our doing, but God’s doing.
God is not afraid of our sin. Our sin does not drag God down, but God’s Love will raise us up, if and when we use our free will to repent and free ourselves from sin and death through God’s power.
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True but Jesus already knew one of them Wolof betrayed him.
I’ll have to read through everyone’s comment later and see if my point was made by another.
However when I read scripture I don’t see prophecy as taking away someone’s will. I take it as God knows everything, including the choices we make. He does not force us to make a choice simply knows the choices we will make. That’s very different than forcing our choices.
However what he does is influence choices in order to bring about his will. So take the Pharaoh. God knew that he was going to be evil. So out of divine wisdom working with the character of the Pharaoh and the position he would obtain God hardened his heart. I believe God can see all possible outcomes and searches our hearts and works with all of that to bring about his will. It’s not forcing us to be evil or good, but he seems to be able to harden evil peoples heart and even soften them but he never makes us make a choice. The choice is always ours.
When reading about predestination in scripture to me it seems to refer to a collective general term of his people and not about specific individuals.
So he never made Judas betray Jesus. Judas betrayed Jesus because of greed. God just knew what choices he would make and perhaps God hardened Judas’s heart more and more with greed through tests as the money holder.
But when we stand before God I don’t any evidence that anyone can say well God I am in hell because you created me for hell.
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So why did God put the tree ? If he knew Adam and Eve would sin why put the tree?
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Don’t believe in magical fruit, talking animals, or golems of dust and bone.
The trees represent something which is a part of us, part of our lives.
The commandment is just like the command of parents, “do not play in the street, or you will die.” Such commands are not absolute and forever but necessary for a time while they mature. The street is there because we need it, as much for the child’s well being (access to food and medical care) as anything else. But just because we command them to avoid this danger at a particular time, doesn’t mean it has no place in their future.
But I do not believe God knew Adam and Eve would sin. This just doesn’t make sense with what we read in Genesis chapter 6. Sin destroys free will and makes us very predictable, but Adam and Eve had no sin. We are not characters in a book already written. The future is superposition of possibilities, that is what distinguishes it from the past and distinguishes us from the characters in books which have no life or consciousness.
But doesn’t God know all? Why wouldn’t God know that Adam and Eve would sin?
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That view makes Jesus into Plan B (not unlike YEC thinking). Oops, Adam and Eve sinned, what are we going to do now.
God knows all that He chooses to know. Omniscience doesn’t mean God has to know everything any more than Omnipotence means God has to do everything.
And the future is not one of the things which God knows absolutely for two reasons:
- Because this is not the Deist God who simply sits back and watches but one who participates in events, changing the outcome. If the future were fixed then God could not do that.
- Because we have been given free will so that we also participate in events changing the outcome. We are not simple characters in a book God has written – for such do not and cannot be alive or have any consciousness.
Because they have free will.
Big oops indeed, and getting bigger and bigger as time went on, until… Genesis 6" “6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.”
And Jesus was Plan B. I don’t think so, nor is your proof text adequate.
Jesus is not a plan at all. Jesus is God.
(Hey, we agree!) But that’s beside the point. Have you heard of the plan of salvation?
Sure… I just don’t equate it with the plan of creation. It’s like filing divorce papers when you get married so you are prepared if it doesn’t work out. Planning for failure is not something any God I believe in would do. Nor do I believe in the control freak God who is logically incapable of love.
What do you do with this (and similar verses)?:
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.’ Matthew 25:34
Why do you see this as a problem???
Are you hunting for a verse to prove that God was already filing for divorce from beginning?
You may simply disagree, but I believe in predestination and free will, because that is what the Bible teaches. They are not mutually exclusive, even though to our limited thinking they may appear to be. Insisting that they are is denying scripture.
Do you believe in God’s providence? I hope so. Explain how it works (it involves planning). Shall we talk about time.