I don’t think that God prevented and your wife from having children. You know, it just happened. It’s a great misfortune and I think you and your wife would have made wonderful parents.
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As opposed to the countless other monsters that have been allowed to exist?
I am in no way trying to shake your faith. In everything I post here, I am trying to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. It is never fun to have to be the one to ask all these questions. To be the one who cannot just BELIEVE. It is incredibly frustrating. Alas, I cannot risk living a lie. If I am going to do this Christian life, It MUST be because the alternative is a lie. I wont live in a fantasy World. As much as they may be more comfortable and even more interesting than reality.
As for this forum not being the place for my questions, I see no better place. This forum is full of intellectuals. Were I to go to a Christian counsellor, I would get nothing new. My questions and concerns are beyond your basic Sunday School teacher.
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I have to disagree with you because a counselor could give you some relief. You need a one to one conference with someone who can help you with your concerns. Again, I will repeat that we do not always understand the purposes of God with his creation. God is the only one who sees all time; therefore, He only knows what time line of existence is the best. This world will never be perfect due to sin. Only the new earth will be perfect. God has given us the ability to decide. You have that decision too. Have you ever tried to get one on one help in person? This is not the place to get it. This is a circular argument. I could give you an answer, and you will try with some other theory that might or might not happen. Seek someone who is trained in counseling. I can give you all the possible answers in the world, and you would not accept them. My advice again is this: seek counseling. Remember this: no mortal has the answers to all questions. We must live by faith. If you cannot, then God help you.
That is not true. Unless you cannot give me the RIGHT answer. Or at least an answer that defeats my charges.
I cannot be happy with faith alone. There will always be doubt and therefore how can I ever know I am not living a lie? How can I know that what I believe is worth dedicating my life? How can I give an answer for my faith if my own mind keeps coming up with questions and objections?
What if only God knows the right answer. Again, seek a counselor. Good night and God bless.
Hi Al, thank you for replying—I also appreciate you responding in turn.
It is definitely difficult to express complicated ideas and thoughts on an internet forum. However, it should not be a lost cause if a person is articulate and expressly defines his ideas and thoughts accordingly.
In relation to our present discussion on prayer you bring in the factor of scientific proof on the efficacy of prayer and claim that all attempts at evidence are bound to fail. Then you say that you certainly did not believe that your own personal non-repeatable experiences (with no possibility of a control) would constitute this kind of proof. However, my point was in the deductive reasoning of the two examples I provided (the millions of other relatives who prayed for their loved ones who were not spared, and the loved ones of the criminal praying for their son who was spared, and whether God was responsible for the outcomes).
Now… God is responsible for all outcomes in the universe—at the cause and effect level. However, this kind of prayer (where someone prays for someone else who does not know that someone is praying for them) has no causal effect on the outcome of the person being prayed for. On the other hand, if someone says to someone else the he will pray for him (or hopes for, or wishes that) this will have a causal effect on the person being prayed for, because the person being prayed for has an additional person (other than himself) with supporting confidence. Personal, or collective prayer, for the person himself, or the group as one is an appeal for support or favor, or an expression of gratitude. In this instance, the prayer benefits the person or the group collectively. It’s plain and simple psychology. Do we remember our friends in grade school—prove it… prove it… prove it. It’s simple logic—a child can understand.
I could have been dead many, many, many times over (the courageous daredevil that I was in my youth) and yet here I am. Why? I was always looking out for Tony—that’s why (and of course, circumstances dictated that I should survive). Your wound should have been fatal—but, it was not. My car accident should have sent me to my grave—but, it did not. Evil Knievel (Robert Craig Knievel) attempted more than 75 ramp-to-ramp motorcycle jumps, and a canyon jump across Snake River Canyon—which failed. He suffered more than 433 bone fractures and was entered in the Guinness Book of World Records as the survivor of “most bones broken in a lifetime.” He should have died at any one of those jumps—yet, he did not. Why? God was always looking out for him (and of course, circumstances dictated that he should survive). Knievel died of pulmonary disease at age 69.
I don’t know all the details, but I’m sure as a young, strong 19-year-old you fought tooth and nail to survive the horrors of the war. I presume you were always Christian—therefore the good Lord was always in your heart—and circumstances were favorable for your survival. Everyone in the free world should always be grateful for men like you Albert—the courageous heroes who fought for the principle and dignity of humanity. Again, I am glad you are with us Al.
My opinion is that God and Fate decree our purpose to fulfill in life. And I sense (through your internet aura) that you are a very kind, good natured person, Al, and all the people you have touched are blessed by your kindness.
I’ll second Patrick’s statement, “The reason you survived WWII is obvious: to have that great great granddaughter who will do great things for the world.”
Good to talk with you Albert—blessings to you and yours.
Tony
I have asked your questions myself. I saw atrocities and injustices and heard of worse. I questioned God, about His existence, for why all the pain, and for why prayer doesn’t work like I was told it should work. I will try to relay what I have gleaned as answers.
Two of the question were answered through prayer, immediately. I simply ask Him if He existed. He answered, “Yes.” It was as clear as if someone next to me spoke. I sang for a week. I knew that some prays were answered. But that did not end my quest. Like you I needed rational answers. I kept asking.
I do not believe in the goody-goody God described by some. I do not believe He is so perfect that He hides from sin in some far away heaven. If God is everywhere, then He is everywhere. He is with everyone, not just the good guys. That means He is with the worst murderers, rapists, and hypocritical church leaders while they plan and enact evil. And… He let them continue in their evil without stopping them. This theology is biblical. He let nations get horrible before He sent in other humans to annihilate them. But, that does not answer the question of, “Why pain?”
The Bible describes God with feelings. Some say the writers anthropomorphized God. Some say this was Jesus. I believe God feels. Being everywhere means God feels every person’s pain. He has been with every victim of every crime. Not one of them died alone. He shared their pain, and ours.
God took responsibility for all that pain. He made covenant with Abraham (Gen 15) but instead of letting Abraham pay the price for his children’s eventual sins, God accepted responsibility for those transgressions. In doing so, He accepted the sins of the entire lineage of Adam, including those yet unborn. God, as Jesus, consented to physical life and physical death to show us how close He is to our suffering. He knows it all. Not one evil deed goes unnoticed. But, that does not answer the question of, “Why pain?”
You call most prayers petty. That is probably true. Humans are generally petty. Someone already gave a good analysis of “petty prayers” and how any prayer can be considered petty in contrast to someone else’s troubles. I think God sees our petitions as if we are small children. We want what we want when we want it. NOW! Yet, throwing a tantrum or “praying hard” does not get us what we want. After a while, if we don’t get what we want, we think bad of God. He does not answer prayers. He can’t answer prayers. He is mad at me. He hates me. He’s not good. However, saying, “No,” to a child is often the best answer. They don’t understand why, may never understand why, but it is the best answer.
God does not give signs and wonders to those who simply want to be impressed. Prayer is not about getting stuff. It is not a magic wand to flick for miracles. You said you felt better at the time you prayed often. That is because you were communicating. You became upset with God and stopped communicating. Not surprising, the benefit of communication left you. That does not mean God did not hear and feel your frustration and distress.
A lot of pain human’s originate. We as a society inflict it upon ourselves, and then expect God to fix our problems. Good people do not stand up to evil people who continue to spread their evil. Instead of stopping the evil early, we let it pass until we must go to war to stop such things from continuing. There, people die or are wounded physically. All are wounded psychologically. Consequences are real. Churches are not immune. Atheists are not immune.
My belief for why God does not stop these from happening is that the good people were supposed to act but did not. Leaders were supposed to teach goodness, but the power hungry became the leaders and they preferred ritual and dogma. Leaders were to teach inner healing, but did not befriend those who bled. The communities morality and ethics becomes so distorted they call good evil and evil good. God went through all that pain with all those people, because we were not willing to step up early to fix our mess or help our neighbor.
But that does not answers the question of, “Why would a good God create a world with so much pain in the first place?”
The book of Job addresses that issue. His friends preferred to hunt for something to blame. At the end, God responds to the question of, “Why?” The short answer is, “Because, that is how I made the world.”
That answer frustrated me for a long time. But the answer is there. We don’t understand because our teaching is distorted. Biblically, God did not create a perfect world. Nor did Adam’s sin corrupted a perfect world. Those dogmatic concepts are not in the Bible. They were added because we don’t comprehend why God’s creation included so many creatures that harm and kill. Our forefathers preferred to blame Satan or sin after people died in earthquakes or high wind. We can’t accept that God’s creation allowed for mutations that turn into cancers and kill young children. But, God called all His creation “Very Good.”
We want to scream “God did it wrong! A good God would never have done it that way!”
But what if all those frightening and deadly things are good for something. Volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis are good. Plate tectonics makes earth a living world capable of making continents and shallow oceans. Mutation kills some individuals, but it also helps sculpt life forms into an array of variation. Bacteria infect too often, but they are used to make medicine and wine. Maybe, to get to good stuff, one must go through hell.
God asked us from the beginning to be good. That one thing would alleviate so much suffering. He asked us to understand the good in the earth and the good in the plants and animals. Understanding these would let us anticipate the dangers and utilize the resources. Humans keep resisting these. We do things the hard way. Maybe, just maybe, God does not answer every prayer, because He wants us to grow up and learn to understand why He said, “No.”
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I think that’s the best response I am going to get here.
Ben,
Why torment yourself? You are very intelligent person who has used reasoning to understand yourself and the world we live in. It is now time to live your life with the meaning and purpose that you determine as the way forward. Live life to the fullest. Enjoy life, help others, do some good for yourself and others. Study, learn, grow, love, live.
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Thank you. The question of pain with no relief from God is traumatic. A response that says “everything will be fine” or “wait for the next life” does not help the now. It does not stop the overwhelming realization of how much pain is in the world or the grief that endures. You sound traumatized by that realization. You are in a time of weeping for all the awful things that happen. Trust God feel exactly the same thing. Trust God to help you through it. Trust God to actually know what He is doing and is going to do. Start talking to Him again instead of screaming. Maybe that way you will hear His answer.
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I wish that I deserved your most generous praise, Tony, but I do not. And neither does the outfit I was in. It was totally FUBAR. Just thank God there were others (the Big Red One, the 101st Airborne, and the Red Army,etc.) that took on the real Wehrmacht and licked them.
But getting back to the matter of efficacy of prayer: The image of my Mom gathering us kids to kneel before a statue of the Sacred Heart for evening prayers still has a warm spot in my heart, and it probably helped a scared 19 yr. old scout lead night patrols into German held territory. As I matured, I came to realize that prayer could take an altogether different form–kneeling was not necessary, and neither was the statue. I had come to accept the fact that my God was, first of all, my Friend and was at my side always. As I said, that can be comforting when you are asked, in the dead of night, to advance into a dug-in company of Germans to draw their fire so the battalion following you can see exactly where they are.
So how can I be sure that God is my friend and companion? Perhaps that was my mind playing tricks, using some sort of Freudian super-ego to protect my sanity(?) Does my belief explain the rampant evil in the world, the Holocaust, for instance? Of course it doesn’t. Or, as Ben suggested, if God was busy saving my life, He must of necessity been neglecting someone equally deserving. Even if true, I would hate to live my life believing it. I would not trade the philosophy of life that has guided me these 90+ years for any other that I have seen described. And Patrick, you can believe in an afterlife without letting it get in the way of enjoying it here on earth.
Al Leo
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Trust in your own reasoning.
Yes you can Al. Not letting thoughts or deliberations about an afterlife can lead to a very good life full of purpose and meaning. Just do what you think is right in this life and don’t worry about the next life.
It is amazing how much all of us in our enlightenment-saturated mindsets (including Christians) have unconsciously bought into this modernist notion of a demiurge god within creation, who just like us, has a finite attention span so that our prayers must then be seen as a zero-sum proposition … attention to my prayer must necessarily mean neglect of someone else’s.
If that is what Christians seek to worship now, then indeed they will despair. But the true and living God, Al, the one who was beside you through all your terrifying war experiences and who also was tenderly with all your friends who died in that war at the hands of people enthralled to unspeakable evil, that God who is with us in our survivals and our inevitable deaths is indeed worth holding on to. I’m glad you’re here now to share with us all.
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That is not what I have been saying though. I am not saying He gets too busy helping one person and as a result, fails to be there for another. I am saying that BECAUSE that other person is not aided in any way, that it is unreasonable to assume He is helping anyone at all. To assume He is helping one but not another, regardless of the time of need, is to assume that one is more important than the other in God’s eyes.
This is good advice. And I will take it on board. But the question of God’s existence is the single most important question that can be asked by a Human Being. If there is a God, and this God inspired the Bible, and that Bible is His way of speaking truth to His creation, then it is absolutely paramount that I figure that out, understand it and dedicate my life to what it teaches. Especially due to the claims the Bible is making.
It is in the best interest of my wife and children to become a shining beacon of truth, logic and reason to guide them away from living a negative life and committing intellectual suicide by say, believing crystals have power or money is the key to happiness. Above all, I pride myself on never having the wool pulled over my eyes. If Christianity is the way, the truth and the life, then that is what I want for my family. And I struggle everyday to guide them onto the right path without coming across as a bully. I do my best to teach them to be critical thinkers and sift through the information to come to the right conclusions themselves. Of course, if I can figure it out first, then I can shrink that pile for them with sound and rational reasoning I hope they will understand and accept.
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Mediation implies action in mediating between parties, so as to effect an agreement or reconciliation—as such it implicates a third party. What I was discussing concerning prayer involves communication between the two parties themselves—the conscious and the subconscious aspects of the mind.
Now, if we view the personality in the Freudian sense, with the ID, Ego, and Superego, or, in the Jungian sense, with the psyche being a flow of energy of opposing poles of personality that eventually merge to form the person’s collective unconscious, we acknowledge that there is a third party.
In the Freudian sense the Superego is there to decide how we ought to behave—assessing our instinctive desires against social constraints. In the Jungian sense, the flow of energy of opposing poles of personality need to work out their differences before merging—unifying the dissociative aspects of the personality.
It would seem that Freud is referring to the mature, healthy, cooperative personality and Jung is referring to the crude, premature, dissociative personality.
Of course, if a person is attempting reconciliation between another person’s conscious and subconscious (so that he may be a unified person as opposed to having conflicting impulses) he is acting as a mediator between the parties of the schizoid personality. I am not particularly referring to anyone here, but only presenting the facts as psychology has determined them to be—we are discussing the constructs of the personality and the mechanisms involved.
Benjamin expressed;
I replied,
Stress, anxiety, and anguish are not pleasant sensations. In fact, they destroy the well-being of many people in our post-modern world. Those who manage to cope and alleviate the suffering have close relationships with spouses, family, and friends who act as mediating counselors where we can get things off our chests and relax the racing mind. Others require profession counselors, and still others have an intimate personal relationship with themselves—they are their own best friends. This requires profound conscious awareness, personal confidence, and a close relationship with God.
Philippians 4:7 states;
“And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
And James 2:23 tells us;
“And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.”
These two scriptures remind us that being God’s friend brings peace and tranquility to our hearts and minds. Being God’s friend requires conscious awareness of Him, and a relationship through prayer.
The problem of pain… the lack of prayer answering… God does not answer prayers… just don’t bother asking for anything… The stress, anxiety, and anguish of these concerns that many people experience are what develop into feelings of hopelessness. Is there not an answer? I believe there is. Conscious awareness of the facts of the world, and of the constructs and operations of the human mind can alleviate these senseless destructive negative sensations that affect the lives of so many and cause so much needless pain and suffering.
Therefore… no, I am not confusing prayer with mediation, relaxation therapy, or conscience awareness. These concepts are all part of what prayer actually is—aside from all the superstitious nonsense.
Tony
Ben,
No one In their right mind can deny the immense amount of pain and suffering in the world today and yesterday. And yet people who have endured this suffering do not blame God like you do. Even though the Jewish people when through horrible suffering during WW2 they so not blame God. Millions of people were worked and starved to death in the Soviet Union and they do not blame God.
I do not know what you suffered and you blame God for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. What about their responsibility? God can and does undo God’s, but God refuses to neglect theirs as you seem to do.
Believe it or not people are able to rebound from suffering. You seem to be wallowing in suffering that those who are personally involved are able to overcome. Suffering for those who are suffering does not really help anyone. Helping them does. That is what God is all about and so are many Christians. I hope you are too.
The only way to stop suffering is to end all life because suffering is a part of life. People who die in the Lord are freed from suffering. I am ready to god whenever God calls me, but I am not anxious to leave this life, and am certainly not ready to insist that the end of time is here just because you and I feel that there is too much suffering in this world.
Maybe the real problem is not that pain and suffering is not the great evil that you fear. Too many people are mislead by this. Jesus pointed out that one of the most painful things in life is giving birth to a child, even though we men do not experience this pain. The point is that pain well spent to bring a new life into the world is good. Regardless of what you say you are obsessed with pain and suffering, which does not help anyone especially you. God is not interested in punishing you. You are just hurting yourself.
It is not that I blame God for the events occurring. I understand free will is the cause. I just cannot accept that God answers prayers and stops this suffering. The evidence shows that He does not. He may not be the one literally causing it, but there is no doubt that He just sits back and lets it all happen. We’re all on our own in that regard.
I don’t think so. The single most important question is “why am I here?” What is YOUR purpose in your life.
Yes, it is. And I am certain that you will love your wife and children unconditionally no matter what. And making them your purpose in life will make your life extremely meaningful. And your reasoning will be sharpened as you will use love and reasoning to make decisions in this life unclouded by promises of another life. And another thing will happen when you get rid of superstition and myth, you will enjoy life as it is. You will enjoy helping your child in anything that they want to accomplish. And you will enjoy just being alive.
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