Don’t blame God for the events occurring as He had nothing to do with them. I can’t stop the snow storm from coming but I can help shovel our way out.
You do not see evidence of answered prayer on the grand scale. You may not see evidence in your personal life. But I have. I ripped both shoulder rotatory cuffs and refused to go have surgery because at that time it would limit my arm movement. Of course pain limited my arm movement too. I had blinding pain for 23 years with shoulders that popped in and out of joint two or three times a month, sometimes two or three times a day. I just lived with it.
I knew about healing prayer ministries. Part of me wanted to know they were real. The other, like you, could not believe. It was too “magical” with too many charlatans. One night I went for prayers for another issue. The ladies could see my left shoulder hurt. They each placing one hand on my left shoulder and prayed. Nothing. They prayed again. This time I basically told God to help me with my unbelief. I did not want my rejection to be in my way. Both my shoulders jerked back twice but they still hurt. They prayed a third time, then said sometimes it takes time. I prayed again for my unbelief. For two days my arms ached. Every muscle from my neck to my elbows hurt. Then I realized that the spots on my rotatory cuffs did not. The holes where the rips had been were gone. That constant pain was gone. The other muscles were simply realigning naturally.
It has been 3 years and neither shoulder has gone out of joint once since that night. That was an answered prayer. I now know God heals.
This does not answer why He did not heal the dying child in the hospital who was prayed for by many believers for days or months.
I was told by someone who’s husband had long-term hospital problems that they found they were there for other people. They shared their faith, they prayed with and for others. If all Christians were safe from suffering, then they would not have been there to minister to the other patients and families. They found the good in their suffering.
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Huh? I can only guess this is a jab at my comments to trust God. Well, do I trust my own reasoning? Duh. I have found many reasons to trust God. I also trust doctors (not as much), traffic lights, and the law of gravity. Friends trust my reasoning and ask my opinion on issues. I also trust friends opinions on my reasoning and at times realize my reasoning is faulty.
First of all, you too @Patrick, please read my essay on God and Freedom found on Academia@edu.
Next the role of stopping suffering belongs primarily to us humans, because we cause it. When humans commit criminal acts we have police to catch them and prisons to hold them. On the other hand God provides pain killers to help us when we need them, God provides healing, support, and therapy when we are sick.
Then as you know pain and suffering are a part of life. We all will die. We all must make the most of what God gives us in life and not be afraid or overwhelmed by suffering or many other parts of life. God gives us all the tools that we need. We have to use them.
People generally do not ask God to do their work and responsibility for them. They ask God for help to do what they must and can. Of course there are times we have no choice, but to depend on God. Then it is God’s choice what to allow or not.
We live with God’s decision, even though we know it is not “right” in the short run, but God WILL make a way out of no way. In the long run God will make all things come out right. This what we believe and this is what we know because God spared not God’s Own Son to be born into our nasty world, to live in our nasty world, and to die in our nasty world because of us, so that God could cleanse us from all this nastiness and reconcile us with God and each other. “All things work together for those who love God.” That is a promise!
I accept Jesus Christ (2000 years ago) having been an actual being, and the Christ that mankind is expecting today being an actual being—but God, the Creator of heaven and earth, being an actual being? What does that suggest to you—God being an actual being? Does it mean that God is an actual person that is located at some specific location in the universe (or maybe somewhere outside the universe). Do you actually believe that God has conscious awareness in the same sense that humans have conscious awareness? And that He has eyes that can see all the horrendous evil acts committed in our world and sits idly by doing nothing? This is what it seems that you are implying.
For me, God does have being in the philosophical sense of having substance. For example, in philosophy, “being refers to anything that is, was, or can be. A though, or a memory, as well as a table has being.” The big bang that set-off the universe in motion 13. 7 billion years ago has being. Planet earth has being. The subconscious mind has being. However, is the subconscious mind a being, a person? No. The energy and matter that was brought to critical mass has being. However, is the energy and matter a being? No. The energy and matter spread out, creating the universe, planet earth, and life on earth which evolved. Life on earth took on different forms to which homo sapiens are actual beings—human beings that have conscious awareness, a heart that feels emotions, and eyes to see the injustices in the world.
I would like for you to explain, in detail, your understanding of what or who God, as an actual being, is? This would explain the confusion that happens so often here with this issue—people have different views of who or what God is. Your confusion about prayer is related to this very fact.
You said you reject post-modern/New Age philosophies and their attempts at spreading some kind of Universal, all-inclusive spirituality among people. First, it should be noted, my views are not founded on post-modern/New Age philosophies. They are based on a long held occult tradition spanning thousands of years. That the post-modern/New Age movement has certain similarities to my views does not necessarily suggest that my views welcome any superstitious nonsense found in them. After years of diligently searching for answers about the origins of the universe, the mysteries of life and death, and becoming acquainted with the language of philosophy, science, and theology I am confident that what I have learned has been blessed by God. Second, you rave about all the horrible injustices that occur in the world, you question God for not answering those prayers that you very well know He cannot answer, you accuse Him for those horrible injustices, and then reject the relevant answers that prove you wrong. And the attempts at spreading some kind of Universal, all-inclusive spirituality among people—it’s called Christianity.
By the way, why would you be concerned at all to offend me, or even attack me on a personal level? Reason, logic, and critical thinking will decide what truth is. No. If I am wrong, I will not offend you or even attack you personally. Is it not the same with you? I hope we can continue our discussion in a respectable manner.
Tony
Thank you for your elaboration.
I do not rave, and I do not know what prayers God can or cannot answer. I have read that all things are possible through God. I have also read that He is not a Man but an all encompassing spirit that we live and move and have our own being in. As a result I believe that perhaps God is pure energy and used some of Himself to create the matter that has become our physical Universe. I also believe Jesus Christ is God in Human form and thus is also more than simply a spirit.
I do not accuse Him for horrible atrocities, I accuse Him of not stopping them. I am angry with His ways, which I neither understand or agree with presently. I can only see them how I see them, and so I am justified in being angry. And the reason I share my concerns is so that perhaps I can find a new way of thinking regarding it. One that might help me with my understanding, faith and relationship with God.
Of course I do not intend to attack anyone here personally. At any point. The argument is all I care about. Finding the truth. Learning. Only this IS the internet and things can be taken as personal attacks quite easily. I merely wanted to clarify that that was not my intention. I am willing to learn from you as I am anyone else here. But I can get frustrated when people either mis-understand me or blindly deny an issue. That helps no one. The vibes you were giving off were to me seemingly entering territory which I am intolerant of. That being New-Age nonsense.
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That’s all good. Trust in your own reasoning, trust in your friend’s reasoning, trust in what you know to be true and reasonable.
One’s own reasoning can get one in trouble too. Think about that a while. I would mention more, but this is a public forum. I could give a more direct answer. I am sure you got the amount of snow we did. The Eastern States were really hit.
He knows. Yet, He did not kill Adam and Eve for transgressing His command or passing the buck. He clothed them. He did not stop or kill Cain for killing Abel. He warned him, then sent him away, maybe to keep other “family” from taking revenge. God let him have a family and influence people to build a city.
From the beginning God did not stop humans from choosing to be evil. Why? Because of free will and forgiveness. Some of them became better people because they knew they had been spared. In that long list are Moses, Aaron, David, Peter, and Paul.
I agree, you are justified. The prophets asked “How long?” throughout the bible. Just like Job was justified. God let him suffer and his children died. Just as suddenly, God let Job prosper again. It feels so unjust with lots of meaningless death involved. However, God is just and death is not meaningless.
Just like Job, if you plead with God to answer you, you may just get an answer that has much more impact on you then a simple answer you can get here. But, Job started with his wife and friends. So, this is a good place to start even if we do not understand or respond well to your quest of questions.
Thanks for your responses. You make a good case. He let people die all the time, it is in His character not to answer prayers of salvation. I just don’t like it. I don’t really like Him. To me, though they are one, Jesus of Nazareth is like Day compared to the night of the OT God. It is really baffling. Almost like split personalities. Wrath and anger switches to compassion and comfort.
If I were to point out one flaw with your response it would be that cancer in an innocent child is not the result of anyone’s free will. Rather it often just happens. Therefore God has no reason NOT to intervene as far as I can see.
I continue to get the feeling that when Jesus ascended to the father, He left us to our own devices. That we’re in a period of fending for ourselves. Using the tools He gave us and figuring the rest out on our own.
I hate it. What He left us with is not enough. We’re to be pitied above all else in existence. Aware of our eventual deaths, the deaths of our loved ones, able to ask why but get no direct response… Lost in the abyss. Watching tragedy after tragedy. Horror after horror.
It’s a nightmare. Am I the only one who feels this way?
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I have considered this for many years, and when tragic events were personal, and especially happens to someone close to us, for whom we care a great deal, it feels awful. I have considered the essential aspects of Christianity for a very long time, and this enabled me to understand, and reason, and to feel these tragedies in a particular context - that of the Law of God and Faith in Christ. I can only say in a blog exchange that it is difficult and takes a long time to work through all of one’s feelings and thoughts, and my reasoning after this can become somewhat formal and even sound impersonal. I offer the following extract as an example of my approach - hopefully is may serve a useful purpose ( I apologise in advance for the length, and warn you this is a small extract):
"The problematical in a community consist of destructive acts or crimes, while religiously the problematical is termed sin (and vice). There are examples of people not of the faith who have appropriated the religious vocation to achieve personal ends and on careful analysis they may be shown to have conformed to the secular norms. The dynamics of systems or structures populated by such people are understood as attempts to acquire power over others. Thus dictators may impose order to unstable communities, while the dictators themselves may be malevolent and are often insanely destructive. In religious institutions, external signs of piety may be observed, but internally they may be riddled with vice and perversity. It is clear, therefore, that the attribute of lawfulness is a requirement that a community must meet before it can obey the law of God.
To avoid circularity in this discussion, the intent of a person needs to be based on a free choice regarding the law of God, and this requires the understanding that arises within the spontaneous response of reason to the revealed goodness. The aspect of law as consequences, in this context, is understood because of the beneficial outcomes to the community when people equate good intention with good action. The law of God as articulated provides the specific understanding of how particular good acts can provide good outcomes; it may also be specifically understood as the absence of benefits to people if intent and/or act are contrary to the law (by extension contrary to the revealed good). The law of God can thus be understood in the context of benefits to a community. It is also understood within the context of the absence of benefits and the potential for the community to sink into acts that bring misfortune. This again requires conscious choice and active effort on the part of the community. The law of God does not need to be enforced; rather the community needs to choose to exist within the context of a collective lawful attribute.
These remarks point to community and law within a ‘total’ concept. Such a ‘totality’ results from considering the law-community as the sum-total of collective human reality. The law of God thus deals with God-man (singular) and God-community (general) in a similar context - the totality of human reality is provided as a concept. As is discussed in the next section, freedom is an essential element in this discussion. To ‘think’ and ‘reason’ within this totality is to provide to human consciousness a basis for a meaning - that is, human reason does not require of itself to provide its grounds for a totality of concept or thought. The totality or completeness-awareness now stems from a comprehension of humanity as being ‘truly human’ and ‘meant’ to be that by God who provides this completeness within reason. The abstract or transcendental view (and perhaps ontological) that ‘as I think, so is the world’ is proven to be unnecessary. One may also think within freedom, rather than ‘I think therefore I am’. Certainty and uncertainty are not a pre-requisite to a concept as being so within a dynamic world. The world does not need to be determined in thought, nor does reason depend on the idea or an archetype for progress – simple and complex dynamics of human reality ensure that change through the constant - is,- and, may-be-more-then-is-(understood), and, after-it-is (understood),’ – this provides for reason to continue within concepts of past, present and future (an argument that includes ‘was’ is difficult to sustain, except as a memory, but communities formalise this as their history)."
An answer to things like death and disease may be that we can strive to avoid causes of death and also accept it as inevitable, so we aim for a good life. - just as we strive to find ways to live a healthy life, and strive to finds ways to deal with disease and disability. Generally, if we are of good intent (according to God’s will), we can find that “all things work for the good…” However I cannot see our current world and existence to avoid death and incapacities - these are part of being human. Striving for the good, and seeking faith from God, are essential for a good life, whatever difficulties we may face.
Strive to change what we can and accept what we can’t? Well, I suppose that is all we can do isn’t it?
Still, our base fate is hard enough. Throw in the little knocks, big knocks and other negativity we endure and life is barely manageable for majority of people. And for the rest it isn’t at all. Our burden is already heavy enough. Is it truly necessary that our little children die prematurely without free will having anything to do with it? Is it truly necessary for someone to be born deaf and blind?
Is it even necessary for someone to only be able to see clearly with glasses?
These things are what I take issue with. These senseless, pointless, purposeless trials that just exist to make life that much more terrifying and miserable.
Knowing that some day, some how, we will die should be the only burden we are born straight off the bat with.
I have tried to point out that we may reason regarding life, and we may also consider faith - however as my remarks indicate, it is for each person to come to a decision regarding his or her life and our particular circumstances.
I find your remarks difficult, as at some times you appear to seek answers for difficult questions, and at other times you appear to have come to your conclusions and wish to lament.
Everything exists in the sense you say; happiness and sorrows, joy, pleasure, pain, peace, turmoil, and on and on … I do not agree with you that life is terrifying and miserable, although we may face these at times. I think life is wonderful and some moments are so sublime that it is impossible to do anything but attribute such to God. However, the fact of these fulfilling aspects of life also make us susceptible to the miseries you are so fond of discussing - and yes, I feel I need faith in Christ to help me deal with such.
To sum it up, we need to come to our own decisions on what life is all about.
What I used to say to Christian patients angry with God, over along career, was, “Don’t complain about God - complain to God.”
The psalms were written anything up to 3 millennia ago, and a good third of them are complaints. They have served tens of millions of sufferers well. And all, bar one, end in praise.
A couple more points: the Book of Job was written about unjust suffering, again maybe 2.5 thousand years ago. It too has spoken to many people (including many I have known) in the middle of the worst sufferings. And yet it doesn’t attempt any explanation whatsoever - just a personal encounter with the God who knows how to be God better than we do.
Lastly, an example of the way the first generation of Christians - well acquainted not only with a lot more disease and poverty than us, but also with cruel persecution in a cruel world - were taught to think of God, as they turned Christianity from an obscure Jewish sect to the prevalent faith of the cruel Roman Empire.
From the Didache: “Accept whatever happens to you as good, knowing that apart from God nothing comes to pass.” That needs a change of the modern mindset of asking God to justify himself to us or be judged, rather than vice versa, but it seemed to transform many people then.
Perhaps a more modern struggler with evil, G K Chesterton, had the idea when he wrote:
When I see the horrible back, I am sure the noble face is but a mask. When I see the face but for an instant, I know the back is only a jest. Bad is so bad, that we cannot but think good an accident; good is so good, that we feel certain that evil could be explained.
The face explains everything, and is found in Jesus.
I view prayer as a channel for me to submit myself to God, to express my inner heart to Him, and to find Him in that everyday communication. In that, I build relationship with Him. He, then, uses that relationship, willingness, openness, etc. to change me.
Prayer is such a mystery. There is power in it. But since it is God’s power, it is not a tool for us to wield. There is a tendency in humanity to trivialize many sacred things. I don’t think prayer is immune to this. As I get older, I find it harder to say with clarity which prayers have been answered and which have not. In my humanity, I can’t see through God’s eyes. I have found what I seek when I pray has shifted subtly as well. “Thy will be done” creeps into my prayers more that ever before. I hope this is because God is using prayer to change my heart to better reflect Him.
I find that praying often humbles me. I can look at a situation and not always see the best outcome. Some things are obvious to pray for… A friend to live, for example. Other things get messy. A friend in an awful marriage. Pray for the marriage to survive, pray for the friend to get herself out, pray for the spouse to see the light, all of it? I have had to realize that my solution will always be inadequate to God’s solution.
As far as the arrogance piece. I see arrogance as part and parcel of the human condition. We all struggle with it. It is definitely not confined to professing Christians. It comes in the form the OP mentioned. It is also evident in that none of us want to be duped. Or to be seen as unintellectual. Each of us has a place in our hearts that houses our pride. I think part of the Christian walk involves breaking that arrogance apart and replacing it with the love of Christ.
I remember reading something to the effect that if we want to deny or reject God, that He will let us. That was really profound to me from a standpoint of sharing the faith. Not everyone wants God. And He allows for that. Freely given love is the only real love. He is love. And He loves us enough to allow us to reject Him. It isn’t up to me to convince people God exists. I can only share what He has done in my life. I can reflect His light. Each person chooses whether or not they want to give that love to Him.
I say all of that because I think that mirrors prayer as well. We can allow Him to love us through prayer in the way that He sees fit. That involves a great deal of trust. Each time I pray, I am accepting His gift of love, even if the outcome is confusing to my human mind.
Well, I didn’t mean to write a book:-) Just some thoughts floating around. Take them as you like.
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I see your conundrum now. You do not see the God Jesus called Abba in the OT writings. However, most of that “split personality” is a distortion by a tradition of human condemnation added onto the texts. The God of creation, the God of Israel, the God of the NT did not change. Christian theology changed what He is like.
Look at the time spans. Note how often the Bible shows God waiting or begging for repentance.
Abraham was told that his children would live in Egypt because the promised land’s people were not yet sinful enough. Over 400 years later, the Israelites were told to eradicate the evil. They did not do what they were told and as a result accepted their neighbor’s sinful ways as normal.
God told Israel that their obedience to their covenant resulted in blessings or curses. The people continued to tolerate and accept transgressions from that covenant. God kept warning and pleading and begging. Most of their troubles happened because the people kept not listening, and per contract their troubles increased. God tried to get their attention. They only listened when it was necessary. God did not take away the land for over 1000 years. The “harshness of the OT” is in a theology that does not realize these people deserved death on the spot because they rejected the contract.
The OT God gave those people time to change just like He gives us time to change. A harsh, vengeful God would not do that. We choose (personally and collectively) to accept God’s good ways or we choose to live like Satan wants us to live. Our good God grants us that right and responsibility.
Beautiful. I so agree with all you wrote.
So often our first reaction in prayer is to make God change reality. We forget to listen after we insist on our way. Is our way, His way? Obviously, not very often.
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Ben, does this remind you of the story of the three blind men feeling different parts of an elephant, trying to learn its true shape?
Perhaps you need to look farther, Ben. Perhaps He intervenes in a way that you are not aware of. I have been fortunate to work with a number of research groups that have worked hard to eliminate leukemia that takes so many lives, including that of my beloved great nephew, Jackie Urquhart. That kind of leukemia is now controlled, but many other cancers are still challenges that must be faced. Could it be that, by asking us humans to become co-creators with Him, He is intervening?
Al Leo
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