The Bible itself makes it very clear that it is difficult for human beings to avoid sin and as a result are cut of from God - so in an odd sense, you are agreeing with the Bible. Understanding why this is the case is also difficult as it requires a great deal of self examination and self-criticism, something we are not easily inclined to do as human beings.
I cannot accept that a personal, all knowing and loving God would allow an innocent child to die, frightened, alone and confused.
That there is a God responsible for this Universe is without question to all but the ignorant. That He answers prayer Today however, is something the evidence firmly shows He doesnât do.
Not logical?
Explain please. How can my position be illogical? It is based on empirical evidence. Your blind faith is what one would consider illogical.
Thanks for wishing me luck.
That is what frustrates me. The Bible largely makes a lot of sense. In time I am sure my smaller questions will be answered, I might even come up with the answers myself⌠But the problem of pain and the lack of prayer answering is not something I foresee being solved any time soon, if at all. It is what keeps me from returning to Christ.
I cannot follow your reasoning - if the Bible makes sense to you, shouldnât the teachings in the Bible on all aspects of human existence make sense?
Your observations and questions are ones that many people agonize over. John Polkinghorne (an Anglican priest and scientist) has reminded us that God is not merely a sympathetic observer of our agony. Instead, by becoming human and being crucified and even dying,he participated fully in our agony.
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I said the Bible largely makes sense. There are many parts that are plain nonsense at face value and even after many years of study.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what you interpret the Bible to be saying regarding the answering of prayer (which I have demonstrated does not actually occur Today) and the nightmarish and unjust suffering of the innocent (which does not fit with an all-powerful, all-loving and personal God).
My reasoning should be easy to follow.
I understand your outlook a little more now - my response is that I see areas of the Bible that graphically show/illustrate the impact of human vice and human evil, all of which is understood as the outcomes of sin committed by us, and cuts us of from God (the doctrine of Grace is important). I also agree with Beagleladyâs comment, in that Christ lived as one of us and experienced our pain and suffering in full measure. These aspects of the Christian faith are central to understanding the Christian faith. I also feel that your view of what faith amounts to may cause you some of these difficulties. As for answered prayer - my view is that we may pray as an act of piety (and this is best done in Church with the congregation), and/or during personal experiences, we may pray personally in the hope that this is in accordance with Godâs will, and in Christâs name. I do not like a trivialisation of prayer, just as I do not agree with trivialising faith as some type of mental exercise.
Perhaps I should not ask this, but did you loose your child? If you have, I believe I can understand how you feel. I married my wife when she and I were forty-four. We wanted children very much; however, Nancy had cancer. Therefore, my wife went through an operation that saved her life, but we are now unable to have children and we are also too old. When we were still young, we tried to adopt a child; however, it was too expensive for us. If you do not want to discuss this with me, I will understand. I have many cousins, but I never hear from them, and Nancy only has her brother. We never see him either. Nancy and I have no one but ourselves and our church. If you want to write me about this, please do so. If you cannot, I will understand. You can believe that. I wish you all the best and may you have peace. Just because Nancy and I have had problems, this has not destroyed our faith. If anything, we have become stronger in our faith in the Lord Jesus. I do not know why some things happen, but I must belief that in the end, all will be made well. I firmly believe that. One day, there will be a better world in which to live. Until then, God can give us the strength to endure all emotional pain. It may take time, but it can happen. I know that from experience. I hope you are all right. Have faith.
[quote=âFind_My_Way, post:50, topic:4220â]
Your prayers are NOT answered. You can assume they are all you want but the incredible army of the prematurely dead in their graves throughout the World are a great testament to how terribly wrong you are. If you survived fighting in WW2 it is because you got lucky.
[/quote]Ben, a few years ago I walked among the 9,387 graves in the American cemetery at Collevilel-sur-mer and wondered why I was not lying under one of those crosses that marked where some G.I. lay. Surely most of them had family at home that prayed, just as mine did, for their safe return. Why, then, was I walking on the beautiful, grassy plot on the bluffs above Omaha Beach, with a loving wife, children, and grandchildren while you lie silently beneath the sod? Why? Just luck? Should I thank my Lucky Stars? Or the Lucky Bubble that burst from an energy-filled vacuum some 13.7 billion yrs ago? There is no satisfactory answerâif you think that each of us consist only of the bodies we occupy here on earth. Perhaps, if we really believed the Truth that Christianity teaches, we would be envious of the existence these G.I.s now enjoy. On the other hand, perhaps the atheist are right and this âanswerâ is just wishful thinking. Ben, I guess we will just have to keep wondering until we pass through deathâs door.
Al Leo
Hi Charles,
Although I would have loved to learn the language you are correct, I donât speak German. As for belief in God and my theology, I adhere to the position that the Judeo-Christian God [Elohim] referred to at the very beginning of scripture in Genesis 1:1 is the eternal animating force as depicted in panentheism philosophy. Developed under the influence of German Idealism, Whiteheadian process philosophy, and current scientific thought it rationally, and logically, fills in the gaps that religionists swear by and attempt to fill with the god of the gaps. In Hindu philosophy, the âeternal animating forceâ is regarded as the all-pervasive Supreme Being who is both immanent and transcendent, both Creator and Unmanifest Reality. Eastern philosophy contemplated and understood these considerations eons before western theology even had a clue. The Ancient Hebrew scriptures (as most all religious writings) anthropomorphized the all-pervasive Supreme Being. Christianity (as a religion) was founded upon this anthropomorphization of God. However, the facts about God (the all-pervasive Supreme Being) have been distorted by religiosity. In turn, the facts about Jesus Christ have been distorted.
Therefore, I believe in God [Elohim] (the all-pervasive Supreme Being) and in Jesus Christ the Word of God [Elohim] (the all-pervasive Supreme Being). I believe that Jesus, born of the royal line of David, taught us how we could have an intimate relationship with [Elohim] (the all-pervasive Supreme Being) through its personal aspect that resides within our subconscious called [Yahuwah]. I believe that Jesus suffered and died on the cross to redeem us from our fallen condition and bring peace and justice to this corrupt world through the establishment of His Kingdom and through His second comingâthe point at which we have now arrived.
I was born and baptized into the Roman Catholic faith, wandered off as a teenager, studied with the Jehovahâs Witnesses for two years, some 30 years ago, and currently read and study everything philosophy, theology, and science. Presently, I am not part of and do not associate with any religious body whatsoever.
I thank you for appreciating what I wrote and I am pleased that you find Bruno Bettelheimâs book interesting. Sigmund Freudâs (and Carl Jungâs) work is crucial for spiritual development.
May God bless you as well, Charles, and I hope that the bookworm in you directs you to the pertinent path to enlightenment. All the best to you and yours.
Tony
I find luck a satisfactory answer as to why you survived. Even with God, there is still plenty of room for luck, for being in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time. That you suffered a terrible injury, an injury that nearly killed you and perhaps has been a burden during your life, shows me that you were JUST outside the wrong place at the wrong time. Did God save your life by managing to JUST alter the course of the shrapnel in time (I assume your injury was shrapnel related, due to the cause being a grenade)? This doesnât seem a good enough effort for the being that created and controls every atom in existence. Surely He could have caused it to miss you entirely. So either He was slack and made a half-baked rescue or you just got lucky. In any case, to believe God had ANYTHING to do with your survival is to assume that you were/are more important than your comrades.
Regarding the existence those G.I now enjoy⌠That is a whole other topic on interpreting what exactly happens after one dies. The Bible is not clear on that as far as I have read.
If God is responsible for saving lives via miraculous intervention, then He is also responsible for failing to save lives through miraculous intervention. And considering the cases of lives that have failed to be saved by such means⌠God has a lot of explaining to do.
I wish to thank you Tony for your blessings. When my 61st birthday comes in October, I will ask Nancy to get that book for me even though I hope it will be in German. If it is not, that will be fine. My mentor from my university days, Regula Meier, knew Carl Jung quite well. My British cousin, Alexandra Williams Wynn, used to date the great grandson of Sigmund Freud. She was a young woman and he was a much older man. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and take care.
Charles
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Ben, I cannot claim to understand what happened to me (and WHY) the night in Jan. 1945 when fragments from a rifle grenade busted a hole in my skull. In itself, that might not have been fatal. Prompt medical help probably could have saved me. But I was a scout a mile into German held territory and 100 yards ahead of the rest of my squad. But they made no effort to save me, even tho they had the automatic weapons that would have kept the lone German sentry cowering behind his wall for safety. So if I had lost consciousness, bleeding profusely on a zero degree night, my chances of survival were zilch. I needed somebody to help meâsomeBODY. But there was no BODY. The doctors who treated me later said there HAD to have been somebody. It was utterly impossible that I stayed conscious, but I did and I packed snow on the wound which helped staunch the blood flow. But I was still utterly ALONE. I donât think anyone can imagine how that feelsâutterly aloneâunless you have experienced it.
I didnât pray to God to save me. In fact I was sure this is how it felt to die. But I felt that I was not dying alone, even tho there was noBODY there. Of course I did not die. And now, 71 years later, I know for certain that I was not aloneâthen or now. I cannot prove it scientifically, but I KNOW. It is frustrating that I cannot pass that sure knowledgeâboth to you and to Patrick. In different ways, it might add something positive to your lives. Regardless, my best wishes for you both.
Al Leo
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God through his Son, Christ Jesus, did save you Brother Albert. I have no doubt of that.
The role of prayer is to develop and maintain an intimate personal communication channel between the conscious mind and the conscience part of the subconsciousâthe collective unconscious). A child instilled with moral qualities, including virtues such as empathy, courage, fortitude, honesty, and loyalty who develops this intimate personal relationship between the conscious and subconscious mind [what we refer to as prayer] is for the most part considered to have mental and spiritual health. Of course, as the child grows and experiences the hardships of life this relationship becomes strained and tested. Many abandon the conscious effort of the relationship as it goes underground and becomes subconscious. Still, others, abandon the relationship altogether through conscious defense mechanisms, repressing the subconscious âvoice withinâ [Yahuwah] attempting to end the relationship. This practice is very unhealthy direction to take our
Relaxing and getting things off our chest is precisely the point of the relationship between the conscious and subconscious mind. You said that when you used to pray, âGod was as a diary then.â However, if we only communicate our conscious feelings, emotions, and desires, and neglect to keep open the communication channel for the collective unconscious to express its feelings, emotions, and desires the relationship becomes one-sided, unbalanced, and unhealthy. We must allow the diary to become animated and consider its wise words as it guides us through the trials and tribulations of life.
Since prayer is essential for mental and spiritual health it should be considered much more than just a pass time. Prayer plays a vital role in guiding us to make the right decisions in our day to day lives. Collectively, prayer unites people together in their shared interest and mission before them. As for God answering prayer requests, and whether we should bother asking for anything, it all depends on what we are asking for. We must be knowledgeable about who and what God is and be realistic about what He is capable of. Perhaps your perceptions are misinterpreting the facts and therefore your demands are exaggerated and impracticable. Something to consider as I repeat, âFrom these considerations the role of prayer becomes apparent in the mental health of the individualâthe foundation for spiritual development and understanding.â
I sincerely hope you can come to terms with your concerns, Benjamin.
Tony
And because He was busy doing that, He failed to save the innocent child dying, frightened, alone and i pain elsewhere in the World⌠But you cannot seem to see the problem there can you?
With respect Tony, and I really do not wish to offend you or even attack you on a personal level at all. I find your Post-modernist position and views unhelpful in any discussion I try to have here. I reject post-modern/New Age philosophies and their attempts at spreading some kind of Universal, all-inclusive spirituality among people. It doesnât help my search for truth.
In all your posts, I find that you seem to be doing this and reducing God to some kind of inner enlightenment instead of an actual being. I could be wrong of course. Just calling it how I see it.
This isnât good enough guys. Thankyou to those who accepted the arguments I have typed here and realized that they are indeed valid. Thank you for simply saying you do not know. I, too just do not know.
But to those ignoring my charges and continuing to blindly claim that their personal prayers were answered or that they were protected, rescued and cared for when countless others have and are notâŚ
Am I on Biologos, a site for intellectuals to find God through the use of the mind and evidence or am I just at some random church building on Sunday? How can it be that you are willing to ignore my charges? My sound and perfectly reasonable arguments?
Tony,
Are you not confusing prayer with meditation, relaxation therapy, or conscience awareness?
@aleo
God has a reason for everything he does. There may be a reason why Nancy and I have no children. If we had had a son or daughter, perhaps that child may have grown up to be a monster, a murderer, or something worse. God has his reasons to do what he does. Remember this one thing if you remember nothing else, you cannot always know the reason why something happens. We are three dimensional creatures and do not see all that there is. God is in the Eternal Now, and he knows all possibilities that can happen. If you are trying to shake my faith, you are fighting a lost battle. I am not the one who is troubled now. You are. Do you deny that fact? Do not discuss me, discuss yourself. You are asking the questions. Iâm not. I have seen many things in my life, and nothing has ever made me doubt in my faith. You will never shake me in my knowledge. May God bless you and help you to see the truth. Also Brother Al, have no doubt that God spared you for a reason. Do not take upon yourself this manâs burden. Christ can only do that. Also,I wish to say this to Find my Way. Perhaps you should seek a Christian Counselor. We all need to talk to someone now and then. I may be wrong in saying this, but I do not believe a forum is a place to discuss this. Possibly seek out a pastor and make an appointment to see him or her. It is also up to you to come to terms with your concerns. May God show you the way. He may show you the way with a personal encounter with a clergyman or counselor. Am I trying to pass the buck? No. I am just telling you how I see things.