For this thread, let’s focus on the data at hand, and try and explain it clearly. We have a lot we agree on.
I started another thread to discuss the Omphalos argument and ID and YEC. We should continue that conversation there. It is interesting in its own right, and needs its own thread.
Well, yes, but that’s because the IDers aren’t showing up.
@Chris_Falter, I thought I would check into some of Denton’s thinking. I have to say, it doesn’t seem like he has much conviction to any such belief in common descent.
Let’s look at this chunk of logic and thinking:
"Denton suggested that these data undermined the notion that fish were ancestral to frogs, which were ancestral to reptiles, which were ancestral to birds and mammals. If they were, then wouldn’t the difference in cytochrome C structures be increasingly different from carp to frog, to reptile, to mammal? How could the cytochrome c amino acid sequences for such a wide range of species all be “equidistant” from the sequence for bacteria? "
In the very first sentence, you see Denton challenging something as basic as fish came before amphibians, and amphibeans came before reptiles! If Denton thinks God-Guided evolution is the “main-chance”, he’s got a funny way of making the point!
The paragraphs below is a discussion of why Denton’s criticism didn’t make much of an impact.
“Molecular biologists quickly pointed out the fallacy in Denton’s argument. Just as there is no such thing as a “living fossil”, and all modern species are cousins, so too, the amino acid sequences for all living species have been evolving since the time of their divergence from a common ancestor.” [14]
[Footnote 14: Spieth, Philip T. (June 1987). “Review – Evolution: A Theory in Crisis”. Zygon. 22 (2): 249–268. doi:10.1111/j.1467-9744.1987.tb00849.x.]
“A modern carp is not an ancestor to a frog; frogs are not ancestors to turtles; turtles are not ancestors to rabbits. Similarly, the variations in eukaryotic cytochrome c structure with respect to bacteria are all due to mutations taking place since divergence from the common ancestor of these different organisms. It thus is not surprising that they show a similar level of divergence and equidistance of this type was even predicted and confirmed by researchers as early as 1963.” [15]
[Footnote 15: A Tale of Two Crocoducks: Creationist Misuses of Molecular Evolution, James R. Hofmann ]
As recently as 2014, Denton has fired off another frontal assault on the fundamental premise of Evolutionary science … that a lot of little changes can frequently lead to Speciation - - launching his verbage against the darlings of Darwin - - the finches of the Galapagos!:
“From the emerging developmental genetic picture, it is now relatively easy to envisage how gradual adaptive fine-tuning of the expression patterns of a handful of genes could result in the different beak forms of the Galapagos finches we see today.”
“The evolution of finch beaks requires no causal agency beyond natural selection. Some finch beaks proved advantageous; others, not. The lesson of the Galapagos, and all such cases of microevolution, is that cumulative selection will work its magic just so long as there is an empirically known or plausible functional continuum, at the morphological or genetic level, leading from an ancestral species or structure to a descendent species or structure.”
What is ironic about Denton’s opposition is that he seems to genuinely believe that God has created life forms through his direct intervention - - and yet simultaneously rejects the idea that God would use evolution to create new Species!
How does one pursue both lines of reasoning simultaneously? How does God guide evolution if when God spends a million years to create a brand new life form - - he has to do it WITHOUT creating a new species? How is this even logically sensible?
If God guides evolution … there has to be Speciation!!! Unless you are going to argue that Whales are just a degenerated branch of the same species of Amphibians!
If God’s intelligent design is in use to create new forms of life … unless God is “POOFING” these life forms into existence … then speciation is STILL required.
Indeed. Denton falsely portrayed the evolution he was attacking as a ladder instead of a tree, which is why his first book was howlingly bad. He has quietly abandoned that view and does not promote it in his second book.[quote=“gbrooks9, post:23, topic:26471”]
How does one pursue both lines of reasoning simultaneously? How does God guide evolution if when God spends a million years to create a brand new life form - - he has to do it WITHOUT creating a new species? How is this even logically sensible?
[/quote]
All fine questions!
Hi George,
Last February, Biologos published Sy Garte’s review of Denton’s latest book. Yep, right here at Biologos. Denton’s views have evolved considerably since his first book, the one which you are mostly citing. While no one would mistake him for a mainstream biologist (as @benkirk notes), Denton does believe in common descent.
As for ENV, I would not expect them to present unbiased reporting with scientific depth. I recommend giving more credence to Sy’s review.
Cheers,
@Chris_Falter, I read Sy’s review of Denton’s book. Maybe @Sy_Garte could step in and explain his explaination a little more?!
Let me show you what I mean when I ask if Denton has really examined his various positions systematically:
Sy provides this quote from Denton’s work:
“Descent with modification implies a pattern of descent through time, where extant forms have descended with modification from common ancestral forms, right back to the last common ancestor of all extant life. But the fact of descent with modification cannot be taken as…. support for any sort of gradualism." [emph. added] (p. 195)
So… Denton places all his marbles on the idea that there IS Evolution … that any time there is speciation … it has to be a DRAMATIC jump… Of course he means by this that the dramatic jumps are guided by God.
But if there were any human observers during these jumps… he wouldn’t see a giant ghostly hand waving around in the air … there would still be life forms mating … and creating new generations … but with giant jumps in the genome… not little ones.
I have to wonder if @deliberateresult would agree with Denton on this …
I will try to do that.
I dont think that is quite right. Actually what Denton says in more recent book (the one I reviewed) is that evolution probably proceeds by saltational “jumps” or large scale and dramatic changes not just in genomic structural genes, but in control circuits that regulate gene expression. He quotes a number of the key findings of people like James Shapiro, and the Wagners and others associated with the EES. In no part of this book does he attribute any part of evolution to God. His ideas in this regard are actually quite mainstream, and the whole concept of evolutionary jumps goes back to Gould, and even Mayr, with punctuated equilibrium.
I havent read this entire thread, but I thought I would correct this one point you raised. It might be worthwhile taking a closer look at this book, since as @Chris_Falter says, it is very much “evolved” from the original one.
Alright… I’m game to try to make more sense of it all …
Thanks, @Sy_Garte… and to you as well, @Chris_Falter !
My memory is that Gould toyed with saltationism and promoted punctuated equilibrium, but that he never the former as an explanation for the latter.
I think your memory is right. But then he tragically did not live to see (or at least to see wider acceptance of) some of the newer ideas of Shapiro and the related concepts and data on mechanisms for saltation. I believe for example that some recent findings of transposon insertion at the origin of pregnancy came long after his death. I would love to know Gould’s views on how all of the molecular data might fit into PE. l plan to ask him that as soon as we meet again. 
I wonder what would happen if you apply the same algorithm to the evolution of LEGO or less sarcastically to the evolution of languages as basically the genetic as well as the spoken language fulfill the task of transmitting a will to control the movement of matter or energy. The critical question is why the process of evolution should allow anyone to conclude that it has nothing to do with intelligence
Are you sure you speaking to the right audience? Look at the very syllables of the name BioLogos. “Logos” has everything to do with intelligence.
Maybe an easy way to remind ourselves of the difference between Intelligent Design and the processes that BioLogos supporters frequently discuss is:
The former is usually discussing Instant processes of Intelligence (or Divine Intelligence for most ID folks)… while the later is discussing "Divine Intelligence in Slow Motion" !
that is why I think that either should not have a problem with the process, only those who claim that evolution proves that there is no intelligence involved which is why some people reject it as being a wrong as it would contradict a theistic world view.
if God created us, i would expect a better body. I have had varicose veins since I was 40. And I was an athelete, very health conscious, they blame genes in my family. Hiccups i observe around the world, why would God do this to us? Hernias and Hemroids also common illnesses that I accept as a result of standing upright after evolving from a fish, but why would God do this to us? there are other internal organs, and a tail bone that suggest an evolutionary development, not something to complain about to God. Several in my family require glasses to see.
The bible hints at evolution - after the flood, all manner of people developed. As though in the short time from the flood to the writing of the bible, black and white people would have developed from the offspring of Noah. We have statues of Greeks from over 2000 years ago, not much has changed. I find it hard to believe that races developed from the children of Noah in the time since the flood. But according to the Bible that is the option. Do you believe racial differences have developed since Noah?
it sounds better when people claim they would expect to be more intelligent
Hi Mike,
You raise some very good points. However, I would disagree with your formulation of what the Bible teaches on the origin of races. You could say that a culturally naive interpretation of the Bible teaches a 6-day creation a few thousand years ago, etc. There is good reason to think that the first chapters of Genesis make theological claims, though, rather than journalistic claims.
What the Bible teaches on races is actually quite simple: God loves men and women of every race, and calls all of us to a relationship of love and obedience to Him. Men and women of every race are created in the image of God, and are fundamentally equal.
There are some more details, but that’s pretty much the whole story.
OH! I like that! All the races of the world would have had to have experienced “micro evolution” (adaptation within a species) in the 4,000 years or so since Noah and his boys stepped out of the Ark.
That’s PRETTY FAST evolution! From the Eskimo to the Aborginal folk of Australia …
This takes us back to the Table of Nations in Genesis 10 … which is generally conceded to be a bit of a mess!
it is faster than that. from Noah to Moses, who we assume wrote this down, is less than 2000 years. And read the text, Sheba - which i take to be black folk show up in 2 generations, as do white folk. pretty amazing?
can’t we take it as a nice story, not factual history? the details are miraculous one after another. rather God spend his miracle time elsewhere.
And i don’t see the message that all races are - you know politically correct language for MLK day. The explanation is given for children, before santa claus was available. that in 2 generations you have black africans . from? environmental factors?
[Edited to include quote, sorry about that]
Another fan of Gould! (At least that’s how I’m reading your comment.) I’m in that club too.
I don’t know about any new ideas of Shapiro (I assume you mean James Shapiro of UChicago) but Gould wrote about mobile genetic elements in typically grandiose terms in a review of a biography of McClintock. I don’t know whether exaptation of transposons is really a foundation of “saltation,” but Gould certainly appreciated the importance of that mechanism. Still, like you, I would love to hear his voice today as we have amassed genomic and experimental evidence of transposon exaptation.
My friend John Farrell posted video of a lecture by another friend, Ryan Gregory, speaking on exaptation in a symosium about Gould’s legacy in light of the knowledge accrued since his death. I haven’t watched, but I can recommend just based on the fact that it’s Ryan’s work.
It’s good to have you back, Steve! (Some of the new people here might not know that Steve used to write for BioLogos many moons ago.)
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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