Well, it makes sense in the light of cessation.
The verses were Jesus promises everything to believers if they pray have been mentioned more than once recently. It made me think that if it were true, the world simply wouldn’t function. So you just pray and it happens? Then everyone would be a believer to get what they want, and why make any effort in life if you just pray and good stuff happens? That’s why I don’t understand why Jesus said that, if it’s clearly nonsense either way.
I feel exactly the same Nick, in fact I used to be 100% deist as a teenager. Even now I have very strong deistic tendency. Yes, I know they say it’s wrong but I can’t see how that is not at least partly true.
I have changed my beliefs about the bible and such many times trough conversation here.But this deistic argument i figured it out myself.It seems logical to me at least
If our prayers are answered and we scratch our heads and wonder is it of God or just random chance then we’re missing something very important. There is no random chance with God. See the Gospel of Luke, chapter 13, starting with verse 1. If our prayers are answered then they’re answered and we can only thank God.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
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By care you mean intervene and suspend the laws of physics? No, He only ever does that in and around incarnating, for the first circle, personal disciples. He can’t not care in an omnipathic way 80 odd circles, ripples down the line. He cares that we exercise faith in love, which we’re only just starting to see is all that matters again. He cares back. He cares that we care and that we can’t and, like you, are honest about it. He cares that we care together.
You are assuming petitionary prayer worked for Jesus and the disciples based on an incorrect and outdated understanding of Biblical inspiration. The stories in the Gospels and Acts cannot demonstrate that miraculous answers to prayer occurred two-thousand years ago. I am not sure how you can pretend to be skeptical about “brains and prayer” yet somehow think the Gospel stories are all true. Your epistemology is all over the place and inconsistent. If you want to be a skeptic then be a skeptic. And even if did work for them, many might just say the Holy Spirit was in over-drive at the time since there was a new dispensation and knowledge of Jesus was meant to spread. While this seems reasonable, I believe people suffered and died, despite their prayers the same in antiquity as today. Cessationism and the cosmic-vending machine God are equally as silly as the other. Both stem from too conservative a view on scripture.
It has everything to do with prayer. Your statement that prayer is useless is demonstrably false as hundreds of millions of people, if not billions, benefit from the practice. The mechanism of that communication with God is also irrelevant to that communication actually taking place. You cannot demonstrate that personal experience with God is not real. You appear to operate under the silly assumption that if you can come up with a naturalistic explanation for something it rules out God. That is a non sequitur. It is skeptical fundamentalism and intellectually bankrupt.Equally likely is God would design a system where prayer would axiomatically lead to spiritual benefits whether he was actively answering or not. The issues can be treated separately but for many of us, tying part of prayer into the brain presents no problems. We believe in divine imminence and that God created and designed the universe.
Do you also believe you can prove love is only the product of the meat computers in our head? Or that truth is just brain chemistry? This is a slippery slope and this level of disconnecting experience from reality might cause us to become solipsists.
I believe that 70& of this world is sibjective while the rest is objective.
In the end if you trick your mind to a point where you believe “prayer brings me closer to God or something spiritual” you will eventuaally be satisfied by it and think its the work of prayer.Thats why prayer doesnt work.
Also
So explain to me why i cant be a believer and a sceptic?
Sounds like something a YECER would say to an evolutionist Christian huh?
This is my second attempt to respond to you, Jo Helen. My first is lost in Bio Logos limbo and I did contact the System and, God willing, this one will show up where it should.
If our prayers have been answered and we scratch our heads and wonder if this is of God or just random chance then we are missing something fundamental.
There is no random chance with God. See the Gospel of Luke, chapter 13, starting with verse 1. If your prayer has been answered then it has been answered. What more can you ask for?
I apologize to the System. I’m getting how my responses are linked to the person I’m replying to but not necessarily right under it.
To move on to the question of prayer: is prayer effective or not? It depends. If you start with the attitude that prayer is of no use then your spirit stands in your way
Remember Jesus says God will provide IF you trust in Him and that trust must be unconditional and we all know that’s easier said than done.
Further complicating things we all have a destiny and if our destiny is to die of cancer then we will die of cancer and no amount of prayer will save us.
Still further we are a long way from the Garden of Eden. We are fallen and as a result we suffer every imaginable evil. No amount of prayer is going to change this reality until God decides it is time.
Given all of this how do we achieve the strength of spirit to make prayer (or manifesting or whatever you want to call it) effective ? The answer is in the Scriptures. Jesus shows us the path of spiritual strength. If you accept that Jesus did die on the cross and yet lived again and you can hold on to that truth despite the world telling you it cannot possibly be true then God will be with you and He will, in His way, prove to you that this is so.
Believers who do not believe that God cares. Such sorrowful times come way too often. The pattern continues from the ancient Hebrews. It is why we have people searching for help from the occult or their own mind.
Communication with God is not an “on the knee” ritual or a rubbed lamp. It is sitting in God’s lap or playing at his feet. It is seeing the little things that others call coincidence but you know is favor from God. It is seeing the suffering world and crying with Him. Communication cares.
Miracles do happen. They never defy the laws God himself set at the beginning. He knows how the universe works. That means the smaller miracles look natural. Without communication, you will miss those and give credit to nature. Even big miracles are natural, and people reject those because they expect more flash (signs and wonders). People want magic, not God’s presence. We should see God’s hand in everything because he is everywhere.
So why does God choose to let starving people die? My best guess is that he wants to teach those who are not starving to care. It is society’s choice to let them starve. Not the lone missionaries, but the people who live next door, or the next city. The missionaries stand as witnesses who cry for change. But others must choose to listen.
So why does God choose to not answer prayers? Maybe it is because too many generations have taught children religious rituals that do not work. We need to return to acting like children in his presence. Sit in his lap and play at his feet. Be the kingdom of love.
What religious fanaticism and nonsense is this really? Where have you seen God cares to?Name me one time God cared for his children in general.Prayer remains uselles and will always been,If you want to pray for something pray ,but it doesnt mean it works.Gonna move prayers to my cessassionist list for things really.
Ohh please YES tell me how to obtain the Holy Grail for God to answer my prayers!!Ok ive tried the protestant way,the catholic way,the orthodox way. Havent tried the aglican lutheran etc etc way yet.Any more suggestions?
God forbid that I would inspire visions of Imelda Marcos. Honestly it’s only a few dozen and I should add that I am a big walker. New York has the transit system from hell and I mostly get around by walking which means I routinely wear out shoes.
I really don’t know where the shoes come from but generally they are sitting in the sidewalk. Just today while crossing the street to my home I noticed not one but three pairs of shoes sitting by the curb but they were too small so I had to leave them. But someone had a good day with shoes today.
Lastly I can cannot ask that you take my word for anything. You don’t know me and you have no objective way to judge the value of my words. Just the same and for the very same reason you cannot reject my words out of hand. If I inspired you to think such things are possible then I’ve accomplished my purpose because an open mind can allow you to experiment with the Law of Attraction for yourself and find out how real it is.
If all your shoes are brightly colored and have numbers on the back, you might want to take them back to the bowling alley.
Just kidding. I buy shoes on eBay occasionally
Actually destiny his very important in Rudolph Steiner’s work as well.
I would just ask those who are skeptical on the question of destiny: if the future is unwritten how would prophecy be possible?
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
56
I take your word for your interpretation of your experience. I don’t doubt it for a moment. My mind is open in a different direction. Peace be with you.
Look who is talking.Didnt i sincerely asked you to stop replying to me?Is there some word you do not understand that you need me to explain?(although i doubt since your first language is English).Like its not even my thread yet you still respond to me.And i cant even remove you.The system will show me your replies as “hidden”.I guess next time ill know not to expand on them.Have a great life!