M
Enjoyed your post. Along those lines, during a sermon recently, the topic was Paul’s statement " All Cretans are liars." And the pastor said he used to be called “a little cretin” as a kid. After struggle to decide whether or not to point it out, I finally told him that cretin is a different word, similar to idiot and moron, that used to be acceptable medical terms but are now considered perjorative. Interestingly, one of the possible roots of it is the Alpine French pronouciation of “Christian” as those afflicted with congenital hypothyroidism are disabled to the extent that they were not considered morally responsible for their actions and thus innocent.
I still do not know if I should have pointed that out, as it really didn’t matter, but just wanted him to avoid using it as an illustration incorrectly in the future to his embarrassment. Negotiating some of this stuff is hard, especially for older folk.
Aye, the older I get, the less exciting white-water rafting and risky rock-climbing appeal to me. In recent years, I’ve managed to stay on my horse and let him take me where he wants to go at his own pace, while I enjoy the view.
So here is something to break your brains.
In a community in Dominican Republic, about 1 in 90 children are born with a genetic mutation that causes them to be born appearing anatomically female (even though they are chromosonally XY). When they hit puberty, they grow male genitalia and develop into men. So, the community has three genders, male, female, and guevedoce, and it is just accepted that some girls will turn into boys at puberty because they are guevedoce. You just have to wait and see.
Mind is blown. I confess I have a morbid curiosity to know exactly what turns into what. I know there are fish where only one will be male and keeps the others from changing by being more aggressive. When it dies the next most dominant individual will become male. But who knew people could do it so late in life?! Got to read the article.
If 5-α-reductase could be blocked by a drug, could prostate growth in adult men be inhibited?
Yes, Merck decided. The company developed the drug finasteride, more commonly known as Propecia, now used to treat male pattern baldness and benign prostate growth.
Shoot, I’m already on that one. Some people have all the luck being born Gurevedoces.
“The sexually ambiguous child is born not into a world divided up into male and female, but into a world divided into male, female, and guevedoce,” the report read. “Different concepts, different facts of nature.”
Meh, each of the conditions which result in an intersex condition has characteristics which sets it apart from the others to some degree. But their development in each case is an admixture of various aspects of male and female development. It is a spectrum alright, between the two sexes. I don’t understand the motivation for calling any intersex condition a “new sex”.
It’s not a new sex. It’s a “third gender” people are talking about. That has to do with socialization and societal gender roles. The idea is that in that society, if a girl resists female gender roles that match her assigned birth sex, then people think, well, maybe she is guevedoce and it will all make sense. They don’t insist she act more girly.
Well that’s not a problem at all. Two definitely doesn’t seem to cover that just from what I’ve seen.
That is your opinion, which you are welcome to keep, but don’t mistake it for fact.
Or you could give them genetic tests and see which supposed females are XY. They aren’t magically changing genders. They are expressing the gender that they were all along. Male.
It’s good to see you admitting that science could “come to the rescue” on something! But meanwhile, in a world where such tests just won’t be available or affordable (even now for most of people - and not even possible until recent decades), how is the family and community supposed to know? And probably the even more important question: why is it important for them to know? The community Christy mentioned seems to have worked it out that the presumed gender of any such child can be held tentatively until later development brings more clarity, and apparently they have no problem accepting all the people involved. Are you suggesting that there is anything wrong with that?
We all have our own facts. But my ‘opinion’ is a utilitarian fact.
Sure, but we are talking about a rural Caribbean community in a country where 30% of the people live below the global poverty line, so what “could” be done, what will actually be done are probably different. The point is their society has carried on and not fallen apart, even though they acknowledge three genders.
Okay, help me out: correct me if I’m wrong or am missing something.
- A human’s sex and gender are not the same “thing”.
- This thread’s title and OP focus on diverse human sexes, not genders.
- IMO, Sex Disorders & Defects are subjective opinions, not scientific facts.
- Sex differences can be classified as:
- Genetic,
- Anatomical,
- Other (as yet undetermined) , by which I mean that I am open to alternative bases for taxonomical purposes.
- Clear and consistent alignment of sex and classes does not exist, … yet.
- “Counting heads” (i.e. demographical studies) may be useful for identifying needs and allocating resources.
Correct. But sometimes people still use the terms interchangeably.
Sex is the designation male/female. Some people don’t fit the male/female binary and are intersex.
Gender is the social and cultural construct that gives you a sense of self as a boy/girl, man/woman. Or some other category. Not all cultures have only two gender categories.
Correct. Though since the two ideas are closely linked, some cultures have responded to the existence of intersex conditions by creating third gender categories.
You are denying the reality of the mutations and other medical conditions that cause them? Why?
Is this your classification system? How do you get to come up with one when you don’t think DSDs are even facts? What do you do with the fact that it is genetics that leads to anatomical differences? I think you are pretty confused. The articles that have been linked here break it down just fine, why do you need a different taxonomy?
It is unclear what this means.
Yes.
Sez you based on your assumption that I can’t say “Differences of Sexual Development” without saying “Disorders of Sexual Development”. Surprise. I can.
First, I think about it and see if I can find a reputable resource on line that confirms that it is a fact that a person’s genes determine anatomical differences. Then I look around for somebody who’ll discuss with me the relationship between genes and humans with testes, humans with ovaries, and humans with both testes and ovaries, and who has a little more time and patience to do so than you.
- I think you are pretty confused.
LOL! And I think, … nevermind.
Need??!!! I don’t need a different taxonomy; I just want one that’s a tad bit clearer to me than the fluff you think I should settle for.
Ya know? It’s okay to say: “I don’t understand”. I won’t think less of you.
- Do all XX humans have female anatomy? My guess is: yes.
- Do all XY humans have male anatomy? My guess is: yes.
- What kind of anatomies do XXY’s and XYY’s have?
- According to Of mice, men and women, I read:
“Sex is a biological trait that is determined by the specific sex chromosomes inherited from one’s parents. In humans, male sex is determined (with a few exceptions) by the presence of the Y chromosome. A gene on the Y chromosome directs the differentiation of the fetal gonads into testes, resulting in the production of testosterone — which affects many of the body’s tissues — early in development. People with one X and one Y chromosome, or variants like XXY or XYY, are typically male, while those who have solely X chromosomes are usually female. People have a sex; animals have a sex; all tissues, including the fetal placenta, have a sex; even individual cells have a sex.”- Ahem, …
“male sex is determined (with a few exceptions)”; Me: There are exceptions???
“People with one X and one Y chromosome, or variants like XXY or XYY, are typically male,”; Me: Typically?? Aren’t they male, or not?
" while those who have solely X chromosomes are usually female." Me: “usually” You mean there are exceptions?
- Ahem, …
- According to Of mice, men and women, I read:
- Are hermaphrodites male or female, or can some be male, and some be female?
- Nota bene: the article “Of Mice, Men, and Women” was published in the Spring of 2017, by Stanford Medicine.
From the lead article linked to in the OP, “Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic”, dated October 2018:
- According to the simple scenario, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what counts: with it, you are male, and without it, you are female. But doctors have long known that some people straddle the boundary—their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another.
- Hold on! Weren’t you telling me that “it is genetics that leads to anatomical differences?” Gee, guess the doctors don’t have your clarity in the matter.
- “When genetics is taken into consideration, the boundary between the sexes becomes even blurrier. Scientists have identified many of the genes involved in the main forms of DSD, and have uncovered variations in these genes that have subtle effects on a person’s anatomical or physiological sex. What’s more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body.”
- Yuppty-doodle. That sure breaks the subject-matter down just fine, don’t it?
- Yuppty-doodle. That sure breaks the subject-matter down just fine, don’t it?
Good to clarify. The terms are both used. If you just say DSD, everyone knows what you are talking about and you don’t have to worry about which words are preferred.
Come on, that’s biology 101. Genes control development. If you have a developmental issue not caused by an injury or sickness, the problem is somewhere in your genes.
For example if you have a mutation that makes you insensitive to certain sex hormones (like androgen insensitivity), you will not develop male anatomy, even though you are chromosomally male. If you have part of an X chromosome missing, your anatomy may not develop ovaries.
I don’t consider Scientific American articles fluffy, but whatever.
Here’s a journal article: Shifting syndromes: Sex chromosome variations and intersex classifications - PMC
Your guess is wrong. Google XX male syndrome or de la Chapelle syndrome.
Your guess is wrong. Google Swyer syndrome or XY gonadal dysgenesis.
Google Kleinfelter syndrome (XXY). XYY has very few symptoms and does not significantly affect development of fertility.
The whole point of this discussion was that intersex conditions do not fit neatly into the male/female binary. People with Kleinfelter syndrome are identifiably male, but they have “differences in sexual development” compared to “normal” males.
THEY ARE INTERSEX!!! That is the whole point of this thread. It isn’t hard.
The development of gonads is controlled by genes that either cause your body to develop “normally” or “differently.” How does this quote refute that basic idea?
I’ll ask my question again, … differently:
"Are hermaphrodites XX, XY, XXY, XYY, or some alternative genetic combination that I’m aware of?
The exact cause of ovotesticular DSD is known only in a small percentage of patients. Most affected individuals have a 46, XX chromosomal make-up (karyotype), which normally results in female sexual development. In about 10% of patients, testicular tissue in an individual with a 46, XX karyotype is present as a result of a translocation of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome to the X chromosome or another chromosome. In patients with 46, XX, there have been a small number of cases reported with genetic variations of other genes such as, duplication of SOX9 , mutations in RSPO1 , and a specific mutation in the NR5A1 gene. In the more rare individuals with ovotesticular DSD who have a Y chromosome (which normally results in male sexual development), deletions of DMRT1 , mutations of SRY and mutations of MAP3K1 have been reported, as well as a karyotype that shows some cells with XY chromosomes and others with XX chromosomes (XX/XY mosaicism).
You know that chromosomes are not genes right? They are structures that contain hundreds or thousands of genes. X and Y are the 23rd human chromosome. They contain many, many genes.
Edited to fix the number, thanks, @Terry_Sampson
I don’t understand what this link was supposed to clarify for me. I know what chromosomes are.