The typical number of chromosomes in a human cell is 46: 23 pairs, holding an estimated total of 20,000 to 25,000 genes. One set of 23 chromosomes is inherited from the biological mother (from the egg), and the other set is inherited from the biological father (from the sperm).
Of the 23 pairs of chromosomes, the first 22 pairs are called “autosomes.” The final pair is called the “sex chromosomes.” Sex chromosomes determine an individual’s sex: females have two X chromosomes (XX), and males have an X and a Y chromosome (XY). The mother and father each contribute one set of 22 autosomes and one sex chromosome."
Exactly. Some children are born with indeterminate genitalia. It’s a biological and historical fact. People in antiquity weren’t unfamiliar with physical abnormalities at birth. Like the Caribbean culture that @Christy cites, the ancient world had a category for those born with an indeterminant sex.
I would argue that “eunuch” was a catch-all category in the first century. Jesus said, “For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others. … The one who can accept this should accept it." Some people are born with indeterminate genitalia, and there was no surgery to correct the condition. They were regarded as eunuchs by their culture. A third category. But as Jesus said, some folks can’t accept this fact of nature.
Edit: I should state the obvious that the Holy Spirit instructed Philip to evangelize and baptize the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. Whether born that way or made that way by surgical intervention, those who don’t fit the mold are not excluded from the kingdom of God.
I’ll state the obvious. It might have seemed a sudden decision to you, but it was most likely the culmination of a lifetime of struggle for the person who changed gender identity.
I’ve known gay men who were dedicated Christians and tried their best to “fake it till you make it,” to the point of marrying and having children. When they finally came out and divorced, the spouse seemed the only one surprised. It wasn’t a “light bulb” moment. The same is true of people who struggle with their gender identity from before they reached puberty.
Coincidentally, I had a student born with that condition. In the “old days” (as recently as not long ago), a child born with ambiguous genitalia was surgically assigned a gender not long after birth. Since female is easier to achieve with surgery, that was the default. More recently, doctors leave well enough alone until the child is old enough to show a preference. The surgery is usually done to pre-pubescent 10-12 yr-olds, which was the case with my student. In 5th grade she was male as recorded by law on her birth certificate, and in 6th grade she was female in my class. My teaching assistant was outraged that a child had been surgically changed, but she was wrong. Better then than to make a 50/50 guess at birth (Lord help the child if the doc guesses wrong).
Gender is about sense of being a boy/girl or girl. In that culture, children who have until puberty been raised as girls become men. They are socially designated at that point as a different kind of person than other boys or girls. people thought they were female until they realized they were male. That affects how they are socialized. But the fact that the culture has a category for people this happens to makes it easier. They don’t “change” genders. They are accepted as a third gender all along.
If they are raised as females, then something has to change when their body does. Why not just accept that they are males with a genetic disorder rather than make up a third gender?
Because they can’t genetically test every girl to see if they have the condition. You realize social constructs aren’t something people sit down and vote on and decide to officially have, right? They come about naturally as people make sense of their reality. Something does change, the former girls are identified as men. But they don’t conceptualize it as “a girl became a man” They conceptualize it as "Oh, I guess that girl wasn’t a girl, he was a guevedoce. Now he is a man. They don’t think, “Oh she was really a boy all along.” If a girl doesn’t fit girl gender stereotypes, people say, “maybe she is a guevedoce.” Why is this third category threatening to you?
He had/has a penis, testicles, sperm and got a woman pregnant with his kids. He is and was by every measure a man.
I understand, and listened to a few podcasts where they talked and so on. Does not matter if the idea was there for decades or days. It does not change the facts. My feelings, and their feelings, only go so far.
It appears from your list there that you probably missed at least one of the main take-aways: Don’t blow a gasket when you discover that others (even some entire communities) aren’t threatened by non-binary thinking, and even manage to recognize a place for additional categories within their society.
That is how facts work. A few times on this thread people seemed to confuse “being wrong” with “having an unpopular opinion.” Opinions are about subjective assessments. You don’t get to (accurately) say, “Well, in my opinion, not X,” if X is a demonstrable fact. That’s not an opinion then, it’s just a mistake.
Ha! Actually, I’m all for a more detailed listing of sexes and of genders and welcome contributions from anyone who believes that they are being left out. “All Others” suggests laziness or ignorance (i.e. limited knowledge) to me, personally. But what can I say? If I ask for a better taxonomy, I’m given a hard time.
But that’s to be expected, isn’t it? This a forum, after all, which really isn’t all that different from a bumper-car court… And as bumper-car courts go, biologos.org is kind of tame.
It seems as though you feel that having certain anatomic features entails a compulsory range of actions while ruling out others, regardless of how one feels about that. But why should how you feel about it trump how they feel about it?
It’s not about feelings. It’s about basic science. There is no confusion over a person who is male in every way, including getting their work pregnant twice.
That does not require mental Olympics. It does not require in depth personal reflection. My statement is not some contentious , mind blowing shocking revelation.
After all, it was the same argument directed at me when I was questioning, snd denying that a XXY woman was not a woman. It was mentioned,”‘they got pregnant”. Men can’t get pregnant and women can’t get another person pregnant. But a man with all the right anatomy, and record of getting a woman pregnant with his own kids can’t just change that science because they feel different. Me recognizing the science is not my feelings. It’s the opposite. It was my feelings when I denied XXY females. After all, some of them were able to get pregnant. So the science proved by feelings wrong.
We really are getting away trim the topic but I don’t mind being included if a kind @mods wants to split to a new thread for talking about trans.
But feeling is more than just a fuzzy way to determine facts. I’m sure the man who feels he is a woman who has fathered two children is very clear about which sex he is functionally. He is simply realizing he can’t keep those feelings at bay or maybe they’ve become stronger? I have no experience with anything like that but I’m inclined to believe what people tell me about who they are within reason.
I think anyone can tell me who they are and I can respect it, but it does not mean I have to accept it as a reality. Just because I may sincerely believe that in a teenage japanese girl does not make it so.
For me when it comes to transgendered people versus people with some kind of problem it’s case by case. I personally can’t just let a feeling be the line divider with science.
I agree that we don’t just believe everything people tell us and amended my post accordingly. So if they tell me they’re from another planet, are Napoleon or the second coming of Jesus I’d assume they are confused if not psychotic. But for me sexual dysforia (sp?) is not too strange to be true. It is something I’ve heard about multiple times in various settings so I while I’m in no position to diagnose who “really” has it, it isn’t so out there as to immediately make me think they are confused. So it is like being from Mongolia, I can’t be sure but have little reason to doubt it.
Then best I can do is respect them. If Caitlyn Jenner ( or whatever the last name is I’m not entirely sure ) approached me and I was talking to them I would refer to them by their name. If I was going to use s pronoun while talking with them or about them within that circle I would use her/she type pronouns. I would have no reason to debate them or argue with them in basic dialogue.
But they are not a woman to me. They can be a effeminate. They can be cross dressers. But I’ll never be confused over who they are. I have no reason , logically, scientifically, or scripturally to pretend otherwise. If they demanded that I accept their delusion as my reality or there is a problem, I’ll simply ignore them.
That’s the best I can do and I think it’s perfectly acceptable and polite. I have some wiggle room. But it’s not a free for all and being able to get pregnant naturally, or get someone pregnant naturally, draws a clear line for me.
Anyways. I am withdrawing from the convo. I think it’s mostly clear where everyone stands and how little budging will take place.
There are physical facts, and there are psychological facts. The human being is more than a sum of the parts. There’s no agreement on the cause, but let’s take the physical first. The person obviously wasn’t born indeterminate, but biological sex involves the interplay of genes, hormones, and cells. There are women who produce more testosterone than men, and men who have very low testosterone and elevated levels of female hormones. Both may be capable of reproduction, but their minds and bodies are awash in confusing hormonal signals. That’s just one complication. There may be a physical cause to the behavior. In that case, it’s not much different than a birth defect. On that front, I would note that eunuchs were barred from the temple, but Isaiah 56:4-5 reverses that.
On the psychological side, I consider it a mental illness. (Others may disagree.) This is more than a feeling that comes and goes. I can recite “facts” to a suicidally depressed person that they have a wonderful spouse, loving children, people who care about them, etc., but facts won’t change their state of mind. Mental suffering is as real as physical suffering. To the person who’s suffering, it’s no comfort to say “face facts, get over it.” Mental illness needs treatment, whether therapy, drugs, or in the case of transgenderism, surgery.
Even if we can’t fully understand the condition, we shouldn’t ostracize them.