Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue

Faith & Science Conversation
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I would say yes. Politics is the name we give to how we humans act as a group, and that will inevitably involve justice.

The taboo seems to be related to partisanship, not general discussions on politics. In fact, we could probably just discuss justice without needing to mention politics.

YEC certainly informs some people’s views on morality and human values which are basic components of justice. I’m in the subjective morality school of thought, so I don’t see science as playing a central role in determine morality or justice, nor do I see any objective method for determining justice. In my eyes, justice boils down to what humans want the world to be based on our subjective wants and needs. At best, science can tell us what the consequences of our actions will be, and morality/ethics is the process we use to determine what consequences we want to see. It doesn’t matter if YEC is scientifically accurate. What matters is its effects on how humans view justice.

I also don’t want this to be a huge discussion on subjective v. objective morality. That discussion has been had in other threads, and I see no need to repeat it here. If people disagree with subjective morality I won’t debate it.

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Give us a break, Terry! We aren’t some deep-state cabal here chortling over the chance to throw around some censurious power. Well … maybe just a little bit …

If you’re going to call the moderators’ attention to it, then, yeah - I guess we’ll be on the lookout for misbehavior! Thanks for the heads-up!

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I’m going to toss Micah 6:8 into the mix:

He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what the Lord requires of you:
to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God.

Can justice be pulled from this set?

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The problem is to separate the human definition of Justice from how God sees it…

Human justice is all about reward and punishment. God is only interested in doing the right thing. Justice for the widdow or foreigner is for them to be well treated, nothing more, nothing less.

Richard

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In many ways, I think similarly regarding subjective morality. However, science (and pseudoscience) can be and has been used to justify injustice. Eugenics always comes to mind as a worst-case example.

In a very different way I think we need to incorporate into our undertstanding the growing understanding of the effects of addiction and certain types of trauma on the way people are able to make decisions. This understanding is a result of scientific research. Decisions that take it into account will probably require more research.

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Knowledge and morality are different matters. Understanding may help in making decisions that we feel are morally justified but morality is not based on what science has revealed. Genocide, slavery, or oppression and persecution of minorities are all just phenomena that science can observe but cannot tell whether they are right or wrong.

Justice is tied to what we consider ethically correct or what can be found from some sort of socially (or heavenly) accepted code or legislation, depending on how we define the concept.

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And do/can affect each other.

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Screenshot 2025-05-31 at 05-32-57 The Zorg A Tale of Greed Murder and the Abolition of Slavery Amazon.co.uk Kara Siddharth 9781529964325 Books
Screenshot 2025-05-31 at 05-32-57 The Zorg A Tale of Greed Murder and the Abolition of Slavery Amazon.co.uk Kara Siddharth 9781529964325 Books260×399 164 KB

Dear Librarian,

THE ZORG tells the astonishing yet largely unknown tale of the most consequential slave ship that ever crossed the Atlantic.

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This has been brought up before, but have to post this again, as it adds some commentary to the unspoken sermon of George Macdonald on the subject:

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  • Quick AI peek into “The Shape of Joy: The Transformative Power of Moving Beyond Yourself” by Richard Beck, argues that many people struggle with mental health and a lack of joy because they are “curved inward,” focusing too much on themselves."
    • Say what?! “Curved inward”… a phrase that I first learned about in Luther’s Latin phrase for it: Incurvatus in se
      .
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So “do justice” and “love mercy” function as parallels in Micah 6:8?

It’s in a tight race with Social Darwinism, which gets advocated by some while practiced by many who deny it. But neither of them can lay claim to being justice!

So science can help us see why we should do what we are already admonished to do: behave justly and mercifully.

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Right up there also is the La Amistad affair in the U.S.

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I find this as most pointed:

Two rights cannot possibly be opposed to each other. If God punish sin, it must be merciful to punish sin; and if God forgive sin, it must be just to forgive sin. We are required to forgive, with the argument that our father forgives. It must, I say, be right to forgive. Every attribute of God must be infinite as himself. He cannot be sometimes merciful, and not always merciful. He cannot be just, and not always just. Mercy belongs to him, and needs no contrivance of theologic chicanery to justify it.

It seems to clash with “I will have mercy on those on whom I will have mercy”, but isn’t the corollary to that this: “I will be just to those to whom I will be just”? And doesn’t that make God only partially merciful and only partially just?

MacDonald has a strong point: either Hell is merciful, or God is not merciful.

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Quick, cheap and vulnerable: Siddharth Kara on the persistence of modern slavery

  • “A new book and movie shine a spotlight on the business of human bondage.”
    By Katie Gibson
    October 12, 2017
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You know that I do not use single verses?

And, if you follow through the whole section Micah points out the wrong ways specifically as opposed to the ways set out above.

The problem always is that people are not behaving as God wants, and the only “lesson” they understand is punnishment, But it never works! Eventually God relents, not because they have learned anythnig, or are behaving better, but because God gives them another chance. It was the recurring thing in Judges, and the cycle repeats ad-infinitum,

Scripture is full of the folly of punishment. It doesn’t work. All you get is complaints about the situation they are now in, and the Jews just blame God. He made the hard hearted, or He punished them. They do not see the error of their ways and only obey out of fear. God spells thing out and they still don’t get it. God even sends His son and thy still don’t get it. Paul didn’t get it!
Instead everything comes down to either slavery (not their fault) or God hardening their hearts (not their fault) even down to Heaven and Hell. It is always about punishment, God does not want to punish. He has done everything in His power to show that He does not want to punish, and still we get humans claiming eternal punishment (Or the converse reward of Heaven). It is not about reward or punishment, but that eems to be the only thing humans understand! (or see)

Richard

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IOW deterrence.

God is only interested in getting us to do the right thing. The right thing being what gives long term happiness and well being. The wrong thing typically goes for the short term gain at the expense of longer term misery.

The point of mercy is giving people a chance to change. When there is no hope for change then there is no point to mercy at all. But who can make such a judgement accurately? Duh! Only God can make that judgement well, so God decides.

Taking this to mean it is just an arbitrary choice of whim is frankly simply trying to justify when people don’t make much effort for justice. It basically says power is all that matters. And if you have the power then you get to decide and there is nothing anybody else can do about it.

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Why would anyone think it an arbitrary choice? The problem is that it makes God two-faced, just only to some and merciful only to some.

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Yeah the bully and hardened criminal are the first to scream “no fair!”