I agree. That’s what I said as well. But we both still believe Jesus was god, just merely not a god while walking on earth as a shackled version that existed since creation with all divine knowledge and power.
Or maybe I misunderstood you.
Correct but it all kinda points to that view. If not then what are all thes things like Son Of God ,me and the father are once etc. I mean who father is jesus talking about? And what spirit is he talking about? And what voice said from the heavens this is my son?
There is no evidence that ‘they’ included ‘the angel of the lord as god’.
‘They’ gave the Holy Spirit personhood 64 times at least.
? God the Father.
? God the Spirit
? God the Father’s
Not if you mean adjectivally God. And no, He was never a shackled and simultaneously unshackeld version since creation. Creation is eternal.
Isnt that what trinity teaches? God The Father ,God the Son , God the Holy Spirit? But all dinstict ?
Agreed Nick.
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I’ll go through those verses later and I looked at a handful just now and don’t see anything so far giving any evidence that the spirit is a individual being with its own free will. It still seems to be a power that helps us. But I’ll read through them all over the next few days before responding again about does it have its own personal free will.
That’s down to your cognitive bias. A plain reading of the text with minimal interpretation and imputation to the minds of the writers shows that the Holy Spirit is personal. To force them to be using deliberate personification of an abstract concept is inelegant, imparsimonious, not dialectical. This says nothing about whether He’s real or not in absolute terms. It’s what the text says.
If that’s the case then why not conclude that the word is also a personhood prior to being incarnated in Christ or why did the Jews not consider that wisdom has personhood?
Personhood is implying more than just something being personal. It does imply that it has freedom through a individual free will. Or why did they also not say God expressed in at least 4 ways and so on? Trinity is simply a inclusive coined phrase to express even the basics of God and that’s why it took four centuries for it to be used.
If personhood can mean less than a free independent thinking being then I will see why they did not include other things such as the word of god being a being prior to Jesus and as I keep mentioning the angel of the lord. Those things would also both fit.
Just showcasing why it’s easy to reject the baggage of the trinity along with what it does not consider and still believe that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit works in people’s lives.
It’s too inconclusive and lenses for me to stand behind. But people act like you’re rejecting the Bible by saying you don’t believe the trinity accurately and fully explains god and if that has to be supplemented with other things that it’s ok to reject it and use better biblical based terminology.
When studying with jews, and muslims, and sharing my faith this constantly comes up.
- Do you believe in the trinity?
- Yes.
- What about the angel of the lord was that God?
- Yes.
- Then why is it not the Quadruplet?
Then I have to go through loops to explain it.
Verses.
- Do you believe Jesus was god?
- Yes.
- Was the angel of the lord God?
- Yes.
For me in general it erases having to deal with it and argue over the terminology and what it means to who and so on.
Just in general it’s easier and more consistent for me to say I don’t believe in the trinity because I believe God expressed himself in more than those three ways and that the Holy Spirit is not a free willed agent but a power.
Then when it’s brought up was Jesus God I can use scripture to show how even though he was god, but was not a god in flesh but a incarnation of the word that became revealed as Jesus pursued it , and having met the prophecies that was foretold concerning the Messiah and the Lord of Lords I can fall back to another personalization of God that jews recognized as god and that’s the angel of the lord. It’s just simply more concrete to me than the coined phrase by some guy 300-400 years after Christ passed away.
Concerning the trinity again. When Jesus went to the desert for 40 days satan didnt knew him . In detail Satan dint know who Jesus was . But Satan new God. So i assume that he met the other two persons just not the son somehow . Again this is just a spceulation but i would like to see your answer and everyones here. Had that question for a long time but i came up with my conclusion
I believe that Satan knew who Jesus was.
First because of revelation 12 it states that a war sparked over satan trying to destroy Jesus and I believe this goes back to King Herod trying to kill Jesus.
I also don’t see why you believe Satan did not know Jesus especially considering the temptations he used against Jesus.
Well Satan did say If you are the Son of God when tempting Jesus. So i took it from there . I might be wrong
I always like to keep things simple Nick. Make the minimal necessary assumptions. If the story is literal, Satan had control over Jesus like He did over Job. Jesus was not a Person of the Trinity. He was a person like you or I, suffused , lit up with the nature of God, unlike you or I. The NT writers couldn’t but help blur Jesus as person and Person in their triadic and simple Trinitarian understanding of God.
What? Nope . he was divine and human. he had weaknesses as a human but still was divine. If you were there you couldnt resist.You speak against his divinity right now? I have not understand if you believe if hes God or if hes not .If youre not then i dont have to debate something with you thats fine anyways
Satan did not have control over Job. God allowed him to have control over job and to tempt him and to destroy those around him and so on.
That is what happened to Jesus. He was killed. He was persecuted. The apostles were persecuted and killed for the most part and so on.
What nope what Nick? I’m creedal, orthodox. I know he was divine and human. I would never speak against his divinity. What makes you think that? He was fully divine and fully human. He wasn’t God. He was the ultimate manifestation of God. In, through a human. The most complex being that will have ever walked the Earth with us.
Yet here you are saying that Satan had control over Jesus.So satan had control over God. Dont you think if Satan had control over God we woould be screws
And how can Jesus be not God yet be full divine and full human?