If vaccine is God's gift, is Covid-19 divine punishment?

It also gives more than usual occasion to examine our lives as to what our purpose is, and in what our various hopes and trusts lie.

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That’s true… it would be nice to keep our eyes on that often, but I’ve seen how we can use a shake-up (whether personal or global) for that kind of examination if we choose to. Sometimes I’d really rather just complain though. :wink:

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Complaining is not allowed in our family. We do have the infrequent discussion about whether something is a complaint or a statement of fact, though. :grin:

Oh yes, I remember that story. I would probably be straddling that line like a lawyer by now. :smiley:

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I couldn’t find where I had posted it. Since it has theological implications, I’ll post over in the humor thread (again, maybe?).

I don’t know why people speak as the Black Death was last great plague, or maybe the only great plague in our history. Or last great plague in christian society. It definitely was not, Great Plague of London 1665-1666 was very weak in comparison, but if it kill 25% of population of London as it says here, it was something much, much more grim and for people of London that current pandemic.

This is probably result how our culture shape us, that our view of plagues is fixed on Black Death. My colleague says it because non other plague was so inspiration for art. He probably notice that both “Iliad” and “Oedipus Rex” both starts from outbreak of plague.

This is my problem. We for some reason decided that we can know “good and perfect” when we see it and as such we can claim it is gift from God, but we deny possibility to recognize a divine punishment. But I don’t see a reason why we can infallibly claim that we just know what is “good and perfect gift”. For me this is majority situation as hard as discover what is punishment for our sins.

For example for me AstraZeneca vaccine, which I must take, since I had no other option, isn’t perfect, research on it involved things to me immoral. I still have some doubts if was right decision to take it, since it can help to validate continuation of immoral medical practices. I just judge it as lesser evil. But, I can’t condemned anyone that doesn’t take it from moral reason, but this is already another topic.

One implications of this is that vaccine may be not a gift of God give to help good people with plague, but a rain that fall on us, even if we are evil and unjust. Since reaserch on AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines involves things that I consider as immoral medical practice, Pfeizer’s vaccine according to my knowledge is clean, I wouldn’t be surprise by that.

I also agree that it can go down the wrong road, but what can’t? Fallen human can be leaded astray by basically anything and we all fallen humans. In the past I write about how involvement in environmental make some Christians morally worse, due to hard materialism that they meet in this movement. Many people defended environmental movement saying that being part of it don’t necessary involves lowering of morals standards, since it doesn’t need to be hard materialists, it can be Christian.

I agree to most of that. I still don’t meet in person any truly Christian working in environmentalists movement and my rather disheartening experience with it make my doubting how few such people exists. Other that this, I agree with all. This is about calculation of danger, how danger to you as Christian is to be involved in environmentalist movement or judging that something is divine punishment. Both can be dangerous, even if is hard to believe that environmentalists can be dangerous and very easy in the second case. If you judge something to dangerous to you, you quite and I’m fine with that. My problem is that we mostly don’t this both problem in just way.

 
If you are referring to aborted fetal cell lines, that’s been discussed here, and you might be interested in looking at them:

This is good topic, but I can’t speak about it here. As we probably know discussion of topics such abortion should be leave to other places and for person as me, talking about children suffering without this topic, is near to impossibility.

Christ action described in Gospel were so uncontroversial, that He was crucified for them.

There might have been some martyrdoms since then, too.

Maybe this is not punishment for anyone, maybe this is punishment for everyone who died from it. Both things are possible, but we are just more prone to believe in more pleasant version: that it isn’t punishment for anyone. And this bias is the thing that worry me very much.

I’m personally very gloomy person, so even on the level of my psychology, I don’t have much problem with thinking about pandemic as divine punishment. Sinners are all around the world, regardless of they religion and God is ruler of all creations, including non-Christians.

God of Old Testament is Christ, no problem to me. But, I don’t see what you want to say.

To explain why there are immoral to me, I probably just quote this document.

As the Instruction Dignitas Personae states, in cases where cells from aborted fetuses are employed to create cell lines for use in scientific research, “there exist differing degrees of responsibility” of cooperation in evil. For example,“in organizations where cell lines of illicit origin are being utilized, the responsibility of those who make the decision to use them is not the same as that of those who have no voice in such a decision”.

  1. At the same time, practical reason makes evident that vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary. In any case, from the ethical point of view , the morality of vaccination depends not only on the duty to protect one’s own health, but also on the duty to pursue the common good. In the absence of other means to stop or even prevent the epidemic, the common good may recommend vaccination, especially to protect the weakest and most exposed. Those who, however, for reasons of conscience, refuse vaccines produced with cell lines from aborted fetuses, must do their utmost to avoid, by other prophylactic means and appropriate behavior, becoming vehicles for the transmission of the infectious agent. In particular, they must avoid any risk to the health of those who cannot be vaccinated for medical or other reasons, and who are the most vulnerable.

About these discussion, thank you for mentioning them. I don’t know if I find energy to read them, to be honest.

Well, I haven’t come across any view of COVID that I would consider “pleasant.” But the “punishment for everyone who died” view seems a much more dismal view of Jesus… I mean, in that case why would anyone bother going into medicine? If God’s already decided who he’s going to punish then how could we change anything? Just seems like fatalism to me.

A short argument:

If someone’s son was murdered (an illicit act), would it be illicit of the parents to donate his organs to benefit others, or illicit of an organ recipient to benefit from it? No.

The analogy should be clear.

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Back in the day people blamed Jews for the plague, even though Jews also got the plague. This type of sick thinking has deep roots.

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And he was ‘given’ disease.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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