Incorrect. That is exactly what I did not do. I said God can do whatever He chooses. And I ASKED people what they thought was more reasonable. At no point did I say what God did, would do, or could do.
By contrast, you simply dictated what God would do, giving no reason whatsoever why people should believe any such thing.
So, Wookin, is it only a presupposition that the earth is round rather than flat? Is it only a presupposition that the sky is blue? Is it only a presupposition that one plus one equals two?
Seriously, you can’t just cry “presupposition” as if it were some kind of magic shibboleth to nix any and every argument that you don’t agree with. That approach simply isn’t intellectually honest.
I have nothing against observable or operational science. It is the science that requires interpretation, and interpretation that runs contrary to the world of God. I am only pointing out presuppositions because, we can’t get away from them. I am only only pointing out the obvious.
“Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation .” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”
Looks like it talks about creation to me
We were speaking about the context of 2nd Peter 3:8. You are reading the text backwards, my friend
Show me where I dictated what God would do?
Yes, Wookin, some interpretations do run contrary to the Word of God. They run contrary to the Word of God when they disobey Deuteronomy 25:13-16, for starters:
13Do not have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy, one light. 14Do not have two differing measures in your house — one large, one small. 15You must have accurate and honest weights and measures, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 16For the Lord your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
That’s what I mean when I say that you can’t just cry “interpretation” or “presupposition” as if it were some kind of magic shibboleth. Interpretations have to obey the rules. And the only interpretation of the evidence that obeys the rules tells us clearly, unambiguously, and insistently, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
Wookin, you’ve missed an important point that I made. Regardless of the context, at least it gives us something to go on as far as long ages are concerned. As I said, the only alternative is to believe that God created evidence for a history of events that never happened. In support of that, the Bible gives us nothing.
“Yes, Wookin, some interpretations do run contrary to the Word of God. They run contrary to the Word of God when they disobey”
Those are the laws of Moses. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Those laws do not apply to me anymore, but I will learn from all the laws of Moses passed down by God. They are beneficial for me.
Interpretations have to obey the rules. And the only interpretation of the evidence that obeys the rules tells us clearly, unambiguously, and insistently, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
You mean, “YOUR RULES”. I do not follow YOUR rules, because of my biblical worldview, my friend
Already did that in my post above, but here we go again.
And like I said, you didn’t bother to give us a reason why we should believe this, you simply dictated this to us.
my response to this by contrast…
If God did reveal anything to us, it would be however He chooses to do so. But we can ask ourselves which is more reasonable, that God would reveal things to us through the language and writings of sinful human beings whose thoughts are only evil continually, or that God would reveal things to us through His creation which has nothing to do with evil sinners?
Does this mean that I do not think the Bible is the word of God and a revelation to us? No it does not. The thing about sinners is that having put their free will into the bondage of sin they are predictable and easily manipulated, so God can use them to write what He chooses. And in Jesus we see that God is well able and willing to come to us where we are in the midst of our sin to speak to us in the way we understand. But why in the world would God restrict Himself to this? And why would He not use the rest of His creation to speak to us as Paul said He does in Romans 1:20? Christians who believe in God would have no reason to think God would not do this. But people using Xtianity as a tool of power would prefer to restrict the god they craft to something they can manipulate with their rhetoric to say whatever they want.
Regardless of the context…
at least it gives us something to go on as far as long ages are concerned.
It doesn’t, but your presuppositions are driving how you interpret that text to mean billions of years.
I would think that to be a no-brainer, since you couldn’t know ANYTHING, i.e. sin, sinner, Jesus, son of God, God etc… without His word.
Wookin, do you realise what you’ve just said here? You’ve just said that because Jesus came to fulfil the law, it is now OK for you to tell lies. Do you really believe that?
Wookin, my rules are simply rules of honesty, factual accuracy, technical rigour, and quality control. They are rules that, in any other area of science, if you did not follow them, you would kill people. They are rules that, to fail to follow them would be lying. What kind of “biblical” worldview is that?!!?
Your repeated insistence on using “presuppositions” as some kind of magic shibboleth in an attempt to nix anything and everything that you don’t like just proves that you haven’t paid the slightest bit of attention to a word that I’ve said.
Wookin, do you realise what you’ve just said here? You’ve just said that because Jesus came to fulfil the law, it is now OK for you to tell lies. Do you really believe that?
I never said that. 9 of the 10 commandments carry over to the New Testament. Keeping the Sabbath has been abolished, because, Jesus is the New Sabbath, and Christ lives in all Christians therefore we are conformed in the image of Christ everyday.
Wookin, my rules are simply rules of honesty, factual accuracy, technical rigour, and quality control. They are rules that, in any other area of science, if you did not follow them, you would kill people. They are rules that, to fail to follow them would be lying. What kind of “biblical” worldview is that?!!?
Have you ever heard the story of the blind men and the elephant?
Your repeated insistence on using “presuppositions” as some kind of magic shibboleth in an attempt to nix anything and everything that you don’t like just proves that you haven’t paid the slightest bit of attention to a word that I’ve said.
On the contrary. I have paid attention to every word you have said.
Yes you jolly well did Wookin. The verses that I quoted – and that you said no longer applied to you – were a prohibition against fudging measurements, and since fudging measurements is a form of lying, you were effectively saying that at least some forms of lying are now acceptable.
This had nothing to do with the Sabbath.
Yes I have. But the analogy is invalid and irrelevant. The four blind men and the elephant speaks about four people all coming to completely different conclusions through examining separate parts of the evidence. That is not what happens in geochronology: the conclusions of thousands of different research teams examining different parts of the evidence usually agree very closely with each other.
If you really had been paying attention to what I’ve said, Wookin, you would have either stopped attempting to use “presuppositions” and “assumptions” as a magic shibboleth, or else you would have attempted to provide some justification for continuing to do so. As it stands, you have done neither.
“no brain” is definitely a good descriptor for this. But it is manifestly wrong. For we are not without brain, and thus quite capable of figuring things out once we have freed ourselves from the manipulations of the religious power mongers. And many would include the brain among the things which God gave us, which would have those who actually read the Bible remembering the parable of the talents, which tells us that God expects us to use those things which He gives us instead of burying them out of fear. And what did God do with the servant who refused to use what was given Him? “And cast this worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Isaiha 1: 11 “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats. 12 “When you come to appear before me, who requires of you this trampling of my courts?
13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, 17 learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.
And how did God reveal that last post to you, my friend? Imagine using God’s word in order to reveal God’s word
The Bible teaches that people frequently demand of God things which are meaningless, of no value, and even harmful to them, like in 1 Samuel 8 where the Israelites demand a king. God explains what they can expect of a king, but they do not care. Likewise in this passage we see Moses demanding a name of God. And how much do people make of such names like Yahweh/Jehovah or Jesus, imagining that by having such a name they have some power over them or a password by which they can get whatever they want. Such are the delusions of people obsessed with power and control, seeing manipulation as the only way of interacting with the world.
Did you not read the rest of my post above?
I too can speak to many people in the language they understand, German to the German speaking peoples, Japanese to those of Japan, Russian to the Russians, Korean to those in Korea, and Bible to those of Christianity, like myself. I can also include speaking with math to the mathematicians, physics to the physicists, and biology to the biologists though in these cases we are not speaking of a language established by murder and conquest, but a means by which people have simply sought to understand God’s creation.
And what are you doing?
And how do you know you are right in conveying to other’s God’s creation?
Education. Tends to be a habit with me since that was my profession.
How can you go wrong in conveying to others what God has given to all.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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