Most people today do not understand the evolution of the OT during the first millennium BC. The MT is a fourth generation derivative of the original, with the greatest deviation or rewrite occurring after spending two generations in the city of the devil. The text devolved from a spiritual text into a materialistic text. By the time of Malachi, God had given up on His chosen people and already had chosen a new group of spiritual thinking people to carry his message of the Logos.
Yeah. I think you are wrong.
Exegesis is just the human interpretation of the text. As such it is a fallible human construct of what we think the text means. If it contradicts what we see in the world then we know it is a failed interpretation. What we see in creation also comes from God.
Please look at the Hexapla if you have not already.
If experience (including the common experience of humanity all around us and before us) isn’t guiding your exegesis, then what the heck is?!!!
The destruction of texts like the Hexapla is so terrible precisely because there is no going back and no recovery of that which is lost. But a non-existent text is even more of an inkblot upon which people can project whatever they desire. It does not and cannot prove a single thing except that people will believe whatever they choose. As it is, there are considerable inconsistencies in the claims made for the Hexapla, and thus good reason to doubt many of them. All in all, the best we can do is repeat the work which was done as with the later polyglots which have been compiled, though the principle thing we have learned from such efforts is the forbidding quantity of work and expense involved.
Then why do we have theologians that disagree? I think we have to have both intellectual and theological humility. My reading of scripture is that God wants us to increase in knowledge both of him and creation, but warns against pride and arrogance.
What a fascinating article, especially the example of Togo and its neighbour…under the influence of France. Ideas can have long term effects on a culture.
I salute Woodberry and his research, just brilliant. I do wonder today if the same conversionary Protestantism would have the same success?
Thanks for the link. I’ve downloaded the article and want to get a copy of his doctoral work.
It looks like you got some great information here from many presenters. What people believed about the age of the earth in earlier times is probably debatable. Did not the Sumerians think the world was old? After all, look at the supposed lengths of the reigns of some of the earliest names on their king list? Even if you presume it was likely that a certain Sumerian king really reigned 36.000 years, that puts his term of office way longer than possible if the universe was only 6000 years old. …As for “why” the Bible does not discuss all this – we could also ask why it does not give us a prescription for the cure of the common cold— or how God could have always existed and never been created. God spoke to these ancient people about the things He wanted to communicate. He does not answer every question, and some things He has left up to us to consider and explore on our own.
Yes, the Sumerians understood the long time that Earth had existed and long time that underworld ruled it. As you say, 8 of these kings (gods) ruled over humanity for a total of 241,200 years as the Antediluvian rulers. I cannot say that all Sumerians had this spiritual view, but certainly some did. They saw these “8 kings” as coming from the “10 horns” that fell with the dragon (Rev 12:3-14). These are represented in the human body as the ten false (floating) ribs. Only eight kings ruled the earth because two had already left their ranks - Adam and Eve were the other two false ribs.
Interesting. But that is making more of what I said than what I meant to say. The Sumerians may have artificially ascribed lengthy years to a reign…or had some other means of calculating years…Nonetheless, they used these numbers. Perhaps it was simply a long-ago way of giving a compliment to a well-known ruler. The fact that Sumerians had a pre-flood (or pre-Flood) worldview is also interesting and is submitted by those who focus on the history of the region as evidence, at some level, of some especially destructive flood (the region has a long history of flooding) that served as some dividing line historically for the Sumerians. This may not have been worldwide as in the whole Earth that we know it to be today. But certainly it had an impact and remained in historical records, accounts, etc…
In citing Rev 12, you are wandering through various combat myths, etc., that eventually were utilized by a New Testament writer to validate aspects of the Christian gospel. This is not exactly what I was referring to, and is in fact a completely different subject than the one the initiator of this particular blog discussion was raising — and probably the moderator would prefer that we keep onb track.
Thank you for that. I look at the entire Bible as the Word and it is all fair game to answer the question posed in this thread: If the earth is old or evolution is true, why did God not reveal it, and instead allow it to be discovered by people hostile to the faith?
If God were to reveal the truth to the world, the powers of this world will use pieces of that truth for their own agenda of power and wealth. As they have for millennia. So, God disguises the Truth in imagery for the spiritually enlightened to discover.
I think the question the “Chicken Man” asked had more to do with why God did not reveal nuclear physics, teach Moses about plate tectonics, give Abraham the key to curing the common cold — and many other things.
That is another set of questions. I am sure there is more to learn about out there which we have not imagined – or fathomed. I am speaking here in terms of the physical world and the universe — where did black holes come from? are they a resut of the fall? who was Cain’s wife? how many planets are there really in our solar system and how to explain Pluto? etc…there are questions beyond quarks, and questions beyond those questions.
However, God evidently does not tell all that He knows.“The secret things belong to the Lord” etc…One of those secrets if the date of the Second Coming…the timing of the Final Judgment, etc…(for the most part, we are looking forward to only one of those two!!)
The concept of “disguising the Truth in imagery for the spiritually enlightened to discover” is more than a little bit gnostic in conception. The issue of gnosticism/Gnosticism is a different kettle of fish, one that the church (and early Judaism) has combatted at various times. You seem to subscribe to some form of it. But it is not the Hman’s question.
The answers given to Hman were what I was commenting on. Hman seemed to have the idea that only deists or atheists came up with ideas like “evolution” or an old earth, etc. Some of the other respondents added a bit more to his knowledge. I was referring to that. Gnosticism is another issue altogether.
The Bible is a spiritual story, not a history book or science book. But God’s revelation did not stop with the Bible. God reveals His secrets to man when man is grown enough to appreciate and respect them. I have the pleasure to know Norman Seeff who has spent his life researching the creative process. He has collected ah-ha moments from some amazing people, including the team at JPL who designed the Mars lander. This is how God speaks to us about the material world and worlds of science. Although it takes an extremely humble scientist to admit where their ah-ha came from.
That’s your thought…not Hman’s or the Bible’s. Thanks for the Seeff video.
No matter how OEC/ theistic evolutionists spin it. God’s word does not support any of their scientific presuppositions about the planet. And if God did reveal anything to us it would be through His word.
The OEC/theistic evolutionists have zero biblical leg to stand on
Wookin, how many times do I have to tell you that an ancient Earth is NOT based on presupposition? It is based on measurement whose practice and interpretation have to obey the rules.
And Scripturally, we have 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. I realise that you may think that’s not much to go on, but it is most definitely not zero. A young Earth, on the other hand, requires us to believe that God created evidence for 4.5 billion years of history that never happened. And that really does have zero biblical leg to stand on.
Get your facts straight, man.
@Wookin_Panub I agree wholeheartedly with @jammycakes and I would like to provide you a different geological perspective that you might not have considered - Matthew 5. During the past 6,000 years, how much closer has humanity come in loving our enemies and becoming perfect? If you extrapolate the delta-love or delta-perfection over the past 6,000 years you cannot fulfill God’s commandment in such a short time.
Would you happen to be a flat earth geocentrist with an earth that has ends and sits on pillars? Or do you imagine Genesis 1 to be referring to a large mostly spherical earth? If so, you are going beyond the pure teaching of God’s word and are letting your scientific presuppositions cloud your judgment.
I view the earth as round because my presupposition was formed in the late 60’s by pictures of the earth from the moon landings. I was very impressionable at a young age. Would not a person who thinks the Bible says anything about a flat earth and pillars have to have read some Greek or Egyptian myths at a young age?
The point about a firm foundation comes from the view of an unchangeable God providing support while at the same time non-physical holding the earth on nothingness. Perhaps pillars were considered very firm and unchangeable? They can support buildings for thousands of years.
I think the whole point is that the material and physical aspect of the universe wants to work out on their own their own formation and destiny. Thus we get billions of years in the attempt of evolution to do just that. When God says, “the universe was formed my way, and for my pleasure by me”. The problem comes from the point the universe can have a beginning with any age. God does indicate that the universe was formed perfect and mature with potential for evolution. Humans have always balked at that and declared that it took aeons of time.