Well, death is called the last enemy. But I see what you are getting at. Eternal separation from God for eternity is way worse than death.
Getting 3rd degree burns on one’s hand is not the worse thing either, but I don’t see even a fallible human parent teaching their children not to put their hand in the fire by putting said hand into the fire and experiencing 3rd degree burns. Usually they communicate that to their children via words, which is what God did with Adam (Gen 2:16-17).
I don’t see where God communicated to us anything one way or the other about how old the earth is. That was just not a matter of interest to the audience to whom He spoke.
Part of the problem with thinking the flood was global is that the Hebrew word ‘erats’ is virtually always mistranslated as “earth” instead of “the land” which is what it actually means. The land was flooded. They actually had no idea of a globe shaped earth. All they knew is what they saw and nobody back then jetted off to Asia or South America.
But it matters to moderns as to how to interpret scripture.
If physical harm and death were not in God’s plan from the beginning, why would the psalmist praise him for it in Psalm 104?
I think you are talking about Ps 104:29?
If so, that still doesn’t say God’s beloved people experiencing death was His desire from the beginning. What if Adam had obeyed? Would God have still taken away Adam’s breath? From the larger scope of the scriptures, I’m thinking not. I guess the other option would be that Adam had no choice, that God created Him with the express purpose of him sinning and bringing ruin to the entire cosmos (Rom 8:32).
Gen 6:6,
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Why would God have repented and be grieved at His heart if the Tower of Babel was in His plans from the beginning? Seems like it would have elated Him to see His plan come to fruition.
Then we have to weigh that with God telling us the devil that holds the power of death (Heb 2:14).
I think we have to take the scriptures on their terms, not our own. God spoke to a specific audience and it wasn’t New Yorkers or Los Angelinos. But thanks to the discovery of thousands of ANE documents, we can learn how they viewed the world. Suffice it to say, it was radically different than our own view of the world.
I believe that God knew exactly what He was doing, and I do think that your comment about free will is relevant to why He allows suffering in this world. It really wouldn’t be free will if our choices didn’t have real consequences.
Back to the issue of suffering: If there is no suffering, can anyone actually help someone in need? There are at least two ways to look at the suffering; one is the pain for the individual, another is the opportunity to help that the suffering presents to others. Another point: When I think about some of the times I have suffered, even though the suffering was unpleasant at the time, I can see that I often learned something important through the whole experience, and many times was able to experience the wonderful feeling of someone caring for me.
I do not believe that my existence in this world is just for this world. I believe that God has arranged all the things that happen to me here so that I will appreciate Heaven more than I would have been able to appreciate it without those events happening. Not that every single event is “good for me”; just that they all work together effectively. And that “all things working together” idea is one that is also demonstrated by the way God constructed the whole universe, out of gazillions of tiny things that are so many that we can predict the way the larger aggregates will function without knowing details of where a single electron is, and its velocity.
Not saying you are wrong, but Genesis 1 & 2 does appear to say that God provided everything for Adam so that he would not have needed to suffer at all. The suffering didn’t come until chapter 3:16-19, after Adam’s disobedience, hence plan “B” was put in motion.
Very true, but why would that preclude God from at least planning on Adam not having to learn anything at all about suffering? Adam brought it upon himself (and unfortunately all people). I don’t see God planning on Adam sinning and the subsequent suffering it has caused for 6,000 years. And who knows how much longer the suffering will continue before Jesus comes again? I would say that God was counting on Adam’s obedience. Of course He knew Adam might not obey, so He had plan “B” in the wings.
Actually not, but rather Psalm 104:21 The young lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God.
I think that is an acknowledgment that God has feelings, but knowing that he is omnitemporal, he is capable of all extremes of emotion instantaneously and simultaneously, if you will.
That’s part of my point. YECs do not recognize that and try and force modern English translations to be scientifically correct.
You’re sort of ignoring and contradicting yourself, because Genesis 1-11 – I think that is the scholarly consensus – is not literal history, but as you say, ANE literature, mythopoetry, not that it necessarily excludes literal history and events. (Like, in the beginning, God did create the cosmos.) So you are presuming that Adam & Eve were necessarily literal people when they may not have been.
Well, it’s a good point! I think a lot of the original message is lost that way. But then again I’d say we are all missing the true greatness of that message. We’ll figure it all out when Jesus comes again!
I don’t think it matters if I think Adam and Eve were real people. For that matter, I don’t think it matters if any modern Westerner thinks Adam and Ever were real people or not.
What matters is, did Israel think Adam and Eve were real people? As far as I know, the ANE in general believed in the historicity of their myths. They saw their myths as having occurred in the distant past with a message for the present. That would fit with how Israel understood Genesis 1-11. Remember, Genesis was written some 3,000 years after the events it documents.
Having said that, I will say that I don’t really know for sure, but it really doesn’t matter to me. As I’ve said before, the message I get from Genesis is that God wanted to dwell with people and He did all He could do to make it happen. Too bad Adam had other ideas! Still, in the end, God will have His way. Jesus will come to this earth and rule it like God wanted it ruled in Eden in the first place. God had gaven that job to Adam (Gen 1:26) but he gave that authority to the devil (Luk 4:6). Jesus will get that authority over this world when he comes back. He’ll do a better job than the devil!
It matters a lot if you’re going to maintain your imagination about Adam living an idyllic life forever not sinning and having the Paschal Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world, as some translations have Revelations 13:8, having him as Plan B in standby, just in case.
Although I’m not sure you understand them, I think we’ve hashed my beliefs enough. Maybe tell me what you think about it. Do you think God intended all along to make humans, the creation He supposedly loved above all else, suffer for at least 6,000 years before living with them? If so, why do you suppose He would have done it that way?
Which one of God’s beloved has suffered for 6000+ years? I do not believe that the relevant duration of the time of suffering is more that a single human lifetime, with many twists and turns on the way - as I have pointed out, sometimes suffering leads to good things happening, and I can even see that some of my own suffering has been very good for me, in teaching me important things.
Bottom line for this discussion between Rich and Dale and me is the difference of opinion about whether God as the Creator of the entire universe actually exists outside of space and time, consistent with what He says in scripture to people who don’t have any way of understanding what it means that time (as we experience it in this created universe) is a part of the creation itself. Time in this universe is not something that is overarching and absolute. Time perceived by any observer depends on the frame of reference in which the observer is travelling. Time perceived by any observer in a different reference frame is different, to the extent that two observers will see differences in simultaneity.
Do we humans let our children make mistakes? If we are good parents, we sure do! and we let them take responsibility for those mistakes, including some unpleasant effects caused by those mistakes. And, just like God, we Christian parents forgive our children out of love, and help them learn from those mistakes, and try to do better the next time. We also try to provide a safety net, and put in some specific restrictions to prevent our children from making mistakes that are really too serious, or help them out if they get in over their heads. I trust God to take even better care of me than I can take care of my kids. But that also means that I have to trust that God has a different purpose for me in this world, for just a few years, than to have me enjoy His company for eternity.
You really don’t know what I meant by saying that? You seem hell bent on distorting anything I say, so I’ll stop saying.
Sorry, Rich. I think it’s time for me to reflect on one important thing I have learned from my short time interacting with folks on BioLogos.
I believe quite strongly that God has His purposes for creating this world, that He knew what He was doing. That He designed a world where everything does work together for good for His children.
I believe that a significant part of that is that God allows us to have different understandings, and yet He comes to us where we are. And given that, on many of the questions we are discussing, there is no absolutely right, or absolutely wrong answer.
That is, God helps each of us understand what He knows that we as individuals need to know to have a better relationship with Him. And I am now beginning to believe that it might be better for some people to believe one thing (such as, God created a perfect world on this earth, and Adam ruined it), and for others to believe something that seems to be completely incompatible (such as, God knows, before creating the earth, everything that ever happened). Since neither of these positions can be proven objectively, and, in fact, neither of these positions really changes anything that is really happening in our world at this time and place, I apologize for the tone that some of my notes have carried.
I think that is a good lesson we could all take to heart. As much as I hate to, I sometimes lose my patience, for which I offer my apologies to you. You’re a good man!
Thanks for bringing it up.
If suffering is necessary to spiritual growth, to the making of human beings under the second Adam, then He certainly would have.
It’s interesting on this point that the scriptures make clear that Adam wasn’t deceived: he knew what God had said, he knew what the serpent (note that the term there can be translated “Shining One”) had been up to, he knew what Eve had done, and he had an idea of what was at stake – and he chose to eat, he chose death, something that hadn’t happened in the Garden yet.
Did he do so because he understood that God’s plan already included a Savior who was “slain from the foundation of the world”? That truth about Christ is sufficient by itself to show that this universe (or at least our little corner of it) was always going to have suffering and would require the death of God the Son. That raises the strange question of whether Christ would have had to die if this had turned out somehow to be a universe where no one chose to sin, and the strange speculation that if Christ hadn’t had to die for humans, might He have done so for the angels?
Useless speculation, that – but that Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world suggests that sin was going to happen.
One way to look at that is this: the moment Satan rebelled, human sin became unavoidable since the heavenly being sometimes called “the Shining One” had so much greater a capacity for argument. If so, then the question was never whether those first parents would sin, it was only a matter of when.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
This is a place for gracious dialogue about science and faith. Please read our FAQ/Guidelines before posting.