Good and Evil, Towb and Ra

I find it even more implausible (and rather odious) that God would plan on his prized creation, people, suffering for 6,000 years (and counting) before living with them in peace and harmony.

That’s exactly what God let them do. He’d rather they hadn’t (thus avoiding the above mentioned 6,000+ years of suffering), but free will is free will.

It seems you think Jesus was Plan B?

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time…
2 Timothy 1:9

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
Matthew 25:34

And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Revelation 13:8

Jesus was not Plan B.

I disagree. Sorry, but I can’t side with you and Jerry in thinking that God intended for mankind to suffer for 6,000 years, and counting, before He could dwell with them.

I thing Genesis 1:1-2:4 is quite clear. God intended on dwelling with man when He first put him in His garden. That was His plan “A.” He did not make Adam sin and blow that plan to pieces. That was Adam’s choice, not God’s.

I guess it’s just hard to accept that God would make free will individuals that could go against His plans, thereby thwarting said plans, but that’s the chance He took when He gave them free will. Lot’s of robots are being manufactured these days, robots that have no choice but to obey their programming. God’s just not like that though. Giving them free will was the hallmark of His love towards them.

Yes. Plan “A” was Genesis 1:1-2:4. That didn’t work, so He went to plan “B” which was Jesus, the second Adam.

…scripture, which clearly says God’s plan was a two-creation one from before the first started. It was destined to futility from the beginning, by design.

Maybe I wasn’t clear, but I never meant to appear hesitant. The Bible does not talk about QM, the big bang, or the speed of light.

While God is certainly responsible for those things, He didn’t bring them up to an Ancient Near East which would have had no idea what He was talking about. Those things are just irrelevant to what God wanted to communicate in the scriptures.

So God did intend all along to make His beloved creatures suffer for 6,000+ years? That’s child abuse on steroids!

I think the scriptures say that one of the major ways in which Yahweh differed from all other ANE gods was His desire for man to NEVER suffer.

Excellent context mangling there!

It is you who are denying the citations, no mingling required. How more explicit can it be?

Which citations? Your own declaration that God intended for Adam to fail? I don’t see any justification for such an idea in the actual scriptures.


(“We have to believe in free will, we have no choice.” I.B. Singer :slightly_smiling_face:)

Ne we don’t. We are perfectly able to discount free will if that’s what we choose.

Care to elaborate? Or maybe don’t bother. :slightly_smiling_face:

But even people who ‘choose’ to deny free will belie themselves merely by the way they live.

All those say is that God had plan “B” in mind from the beginning. It in no way suggests God would not have wanted Adam to succeed. Had that plan succeeded He would not have had to put plan “B” into play.

In fact, had Adam obeyed, none of those verses would have had to be communicated.

Are you a YEC? My senior memory does not recall offhand.

Regardless, you are presuming physical suffering and death are the worst things there are. Great good can come from them, as Jesus demonstrates.

So God only planned to glorify Jesus conditionally, should circumstances warrant. That is not how I read.

No. This is the first I ever heard of YEC? What is it.

I think your memory will improve as you grow younger. That’s what I’m counting on for myself. So far, no luck. :slight_smile:


Oh, I guess you haven’t been around here all that long. Young earth creation/ism/ist, believing the earth is only 6-10ka old and that Noah’s flood was global.