Godly Discourse: The Fool and the Heretic at Calvin College 1/9/20

Some of us have read “The Fool and the Heretic,” by Todd Wood and Darrel Falk. They just made a presentation today at Calvin College’s January Series. You may enjoy (as I did) hearing what they learned from each other and Christ’s example of discourse:

(you have to go to about the 15 minute mark to start).
Thanks.

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Glad there was a stream! I didn’t know if it was going to be recorded or not. We on staff went today!

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@DarrelFalk, I wonder if you or others would consider addressing this post by AiG. It distresses me, because I think that they mean well; but obviously, the song by NT Wright and Dr Collins offended their concerns. To a certain extent, after listening to their video and reading their post, I understand it (though I don’t agree entirely of course, as I come from an evolutionary creationist perspective).

How do we respond kindly and respectfully, with “soft answer that turns away wrath”? Here is Ken Ham’s quote:

Sadly, BioLogos and those affiliated with them are leading Christians into error. Wright and Collins need to repent of their compromise with the pagan religion of the day, repent of not believing God’s Word, and repent of encouraging others to compromise God’s Word. They may sing, “Oh, I believe in Genesis,” but what they really mean is, “Oh, I believe in man’s ideas about the past and have added them into Genesis.” They would do well to heed God’s Word, “let God be true but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4 NKJV).

For discussion, I hope that this thread will be for constructive response, not for indignant retorts. It seems a good opportunity to exercise the principles found in “The Food and the Heretic.” Thanks to the Forum folks!

Moderators, if you think this needs a new thread, that’s fine. Thanks.

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Thanks for pointing this out, Randy. Here’s my take. Although I have not met Ken Ham personally, I have met many people associated with AiG (and ICR). On occasion, we’ve had a meal together; we’ve shared our personal testimonies and we’ve prayed together. In each case I’ve sensed a bond that comes from our common experience of following Jesus. We disagree profoundly. They would feel my views are wrong; likely in some cases, apostate. I think their views are deeply harmful to the message that Christianity has to offer this deeply troubled world. Nonetheless, I greatly appreciate their desire to serve God and I have left each meeting with a sense of warm affection for them—each person, no exceptions.

In Mark 10, an interaction between Jesus and a wealthy young man is described. He asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus tells him he needs to obey the commandments, and the young man proceeds, commandment-by-commandment, to describe how he has done just that. Mark then tells us that Jesus looked at the young man and he loved him. Why does Mark make a point of telling us that Jesus loved him? I think it’s because the young man was earnest and sincere. He was adapting the letter of Scripture to his life, which was good, but he needed to know that following Jesus was much deeper than that. He needed to go beyond the jot and tittle. Throughout this whole chapter, Jesus is taking us beyond literality to that which is undergirding Scripture—and that is Jesus himself.

I think my young earth friends can be a bit like that young man sometimes. They can be so focused on their one way of interpreting the words of Scripture that they may be in danger of overlooking the deeper truths as the Word himself seeks to speak into our hearts and minds. Not always though—I’ve often learned more from them than they have from me. No matter what, being like Jesus, we love them and if they ask, we tell them about a better way. In the meantime, we have much to do to ensure that our lives are a rigorous representation of the intellectual and spiritual depth associated with coming to know Creator and creation in greater and greater detail. What an awesome privilege and source of great joy that is!

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Wow, thanks Randy. What an impressive encounter/conversation these two gentleman had. Whatever it is it produced needs to be put in the water. I’ve just linked this to my (YE) Christian brother through Fb and I’m really hoping he’ll give it a listen.

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Thank you! It’s great to point out their excellent traits.

What a profound illustration!

Well put. Knowledge alone does not cause maturity, and we can learn from everyone.

I fear this may not be the most apposite example… since this young man ultimately refused to follow Jesus’s own command and left, turned away and chose not to follow Christ, presumably not to inherit the kingdom of God. That almost sounds more consistent with what Ken Ham would be accusing his opponents of… refusing to follow the words of God.

(Not to mention, I have a very hard time seeing this young man’s earnestness and sincerity, given that when push came to shove, he chose to turn away and not to follow Jesus, the cost to him being too much. I would think that Jesus’s very command to him was almost intentionally crafted to demonstrate this man’s lack of real earnestness and his insincerity?)

An encouraging hour well spent. Thank you, Randy. In the current climate gracious discourse is needed more than ever and I certainly picked up more than a few tips a long the way.

One of the most helpful points came right at the end “Stop forming your rebuttal whilst the other person is talking. Just listen” (Paraphrase). So hard but so needed. I often feel ‘in the moment’ that I need to respond the moment the other person finishes speaking so that I don’t look… foolish, that they’ve stumped me, I don’t know what I’m talking about… [Fill in the blank]. But that is making the conversation about me, and not about them and what they think.

As I say, helpful. Highly recommended.

My thanks to @DarrelFalk and Todd Wood for their inspiring model of gracious, thoughtful dialogue.

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What amuses me is that Jesus didn’t use Christlike dialogue.

I just found that this talk is available now on youtube as a video if anyone is interested. I sent the link to the podcast Randy shared to my brother but haven’t gotten a response yet. I’m hoping the video may help.

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He didn’t use parables after all? :wink:

Or do you mean he doesn’t seem to recognize that Philistine and money changer’s lives matter too?

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