Good man @Cody_G. You’re welcome. Where there is historical and archaeological evidence for a person, then of course I accept that. Otherwise I accept them as mythic literary characters and their unknown authors as schools named for other mythic figures. The most extreme example being the apocalyptic Book of Daniel, which despite not being of the Nevi’im, may actually contain an actual prophecy, the only one in the OT. An instance of the fingerpost.
Believe it or not, the climate is changing and most of it is our fault. But maybe it’s the greenhouse gasses that set God off.
I have some shells pumped from a few hundred feet during well digging from north of Richmond, VA.
Buried a few hundred feet down less than 6000 years ago? That seems a stretch.
Yes, the climate has always been changing.
As for “most” of it being our fault, that is conjecture.
I thought it was interesting when the tour guide on my Alaska cruise said the melting of Glacier Bay was not the result of man, since it happened before the industrial revolution.
I am interested in your response to God’s personal involvement with the weather in the situations with Joseph and Elijah. Do you understand that God controlled the weather for 14 years with Joseph and 3 1/2 with Elijah? That this was not just man’s opinion that God was in control but it was actually God doing it.
Yes, God will sometimes control the weather. But all weather, and all the time? I don’t think so!!
BioLogos can guide you in reading up about this.
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Here’s the best I can do at the moment.
I know when a cold front meets a warm front there is a common reaction. So when man sees that happening they make a forecast. But since scripture shows us that God promised Israel He would give them good weather or bad weather according to their keeping of His covenant, then my conclusion would be that He creates the conditions that cause those two fronts to come together.
In His understanding and wisdom He created the earth and all that is in it. By the word of His power He rules sovereignly over it.
Amos 4:7 “I also withheld rain from you
when the harvest was still three months away.
I sent rain on one town,
but withheld it from another.
One field had rain;
another had none and dried up.
8 People staggered from town to town for water
but did not get enough to drink,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.
God executed His will over His creation to bring about a predetermined result.
In reference to this thread, I only posted the scripture references that showed God controlling the weather to affect a certain situation. I figured that scriptures like the following would be too much for some people, they would say it was just poetry or unscientific mankind expressing natural process the best way they knew how.
Ps 135:5 I know that the Lord is great,
that our Lord is greater than all gods.
6 The Lord does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.
7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth;
he sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
But now since I have had the Word of God washing around in my head on this topic, I do see His hand at work more in the overall since. And I have to say it builds my trust in Him all the more. We had a rain shower today and it has been a little dry here and it pleased me to be able to acknowledge, that God’s intimate care for His man which He created was alive and well at that moment. That is totally different than God setting things in motion in the past and stepping back and letting it take a natural course.
If He sent His Son into this sin infested world to intimately live among us and then to die for us and then carry those who love Him in His bosom up to the Father, compared to that, is it so hard to see His sovereign hand at work as He rules over all His creation.
Thank you for your reply.
There are many sources with good information.
Yes, but God runs out of energy when He makes landfall. But warming water make Him stronger. We could name every hurricane “Hurricane God” but it might be a tad confusing.
YES! Since scripture and God has declared that He has sovereign control of the weather, He does have control over the hurricanes.
I’ve learned not to make light of God and what He does.
Ex 20:7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
Translation: the religion mongers are not getting the glory they think they deserve.
God who has all power doesn’t count it for much Philippians 2:6, and I think the only ones seeking glory and control is the god of this world and people using religion as their own personal tool of profit and self-importance. But of course, the glory seekers and religious power mongers paint God in their own image as one seeking after these things they value and grasp after so much. Only in that way can they use religion to get what they want.
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Apparently Cody’s god is the sort of parent who is always judging which of His children are worthy of sunshine and which need to be blasted. So those hurricanes hitting those southern states on the Gulf has nothing to do with weather conditions but is all about god wanting to destroy those people’s homes.
The only problem is this just doesn’t agree with the Bible at all - not with the book of Job and not with the teachings of Jesus and Paul either.
Rev 4:6-11In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Dear Cody. I really think you would benefit from a good book on Hermeneutics (or reading some more). I suggest this one:
Or if you prefer something more advanced, this one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0830828265/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0dc.EbFKWGCC9
I would encourage you to pay particular attention to the sections that deal with genre. I say this because you appear to read the Bible as a mono-genred book. The Bible contains many genres (poetry, prose, prophecy, letter, apocalyptic) but the one genre you will not find in the Bible is scientific discourse. That’s vital for understanding how we read the Bibles descriptions of God’s interaction with the natural world. I’d also encourage you to read the sections that deal with historical background and context.
For example, the genre of Psalm 135 is poetry. A genre that uses language to descriptively and evocatively communicate feelings and impressions. Poetry also often has its meaning ‘behind’ the surface reading of the text.
The poetry of Psalm 135 is dealing with the Lord’s supremacy over idols (hence the section about his victories over Egypt and Og king of Bashan, etc and the penultimate section about the uselessness of idols). This should caution us about reading the text for meteorological conclusions - that’s not the intent of the Psalm.
Second, when one understands the historical background of the Psalm we realise that Baal (the idol the Israelites most often fell for) was considered the god of fertility and lightning. The pslamist (rightly) ascribes to God the power to send rain and lightning. That has never been in doubt.
However, just because God has sovereign and providential control of the weather does not mean he literally directs the weather everytime like the conductor of an orchestra. That is to do violence to the passage by stretching it beyond the limits of what the poetry intends to communicate.
When the rain falls, we can and should Thank God for his providential care of us and his creation. However, that does not mean God said from heaven “let it rain on the south east England”. Nor is a lightning bolt hitting my house during a storm God’s justice being poured out against me.
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I will have to put my trust in God’s word rather than man’s.
Amos 4:7 "I also withheld rain from you
when the harvest was still three months away.
I sent rain on one town, (south east England)
but withheld it from another. (whatever place near by)
One field had rain;
another had none and dried up.
Cody, I’m not convinced you actually read my post. Since it appears you didn’t not engage with my wider argument.
I shall not repeat it here. Suffice it to say, you are doing the same thing with Amos as you did with Psalm 135.
Also, please can I implore you to stop labelling people’s replies the ‘ideas of man’ so that you can hand wave away their arguments. The practice of labelling things ‘the words of man’ is one of the most deplorable YEC vices, it is disrespectful of the person, intellectually dishonest, and unbecoming of a child of God. Please. Please. please stop.
I’m also still waiting to hear whether or not you believe that the psalms teach that the earth is stationary and unmoving. Is that not what God says in Psalm 104:5?:
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It is always a great thing to praise and acknowledge the good things in life. And God is the best of them all. So I sing those praises too. I am an evangelical, after all, and that’s the best part of church service. But just because it is good for us doesn’t mean that this is what God is seeking. Read Isaiah chapter 1. Praising the good things is all about the effect it has upon us. It is what we need not something that God needs. What God is seeking is a change in us, “cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, correct oppression, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.” And if the atheists can do that better than those in religion, then maybe the religion is getting in the way (just like it seemed to God in Isaiah chapter 1).
I was honestly kind of bewildered when you lined up Job along side of Jesus and Paul. I was under the impression that most if not everyone here considered Job a fairytale and yet you gave it the same authority as Jesus and Paul. Since you consider it the Word of God let’s look at what it says.
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (So God brings Satan’s attention to Job).
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land (so God was intimately involved with Job’s care, he was special to Him).
11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” (God gives Satan limited power to affect Job).
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
13 One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” ( God allows, gives His permission for this to happen to a righteous man.)
16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” (Again God allowed this to happen; it was He who brought Job to Satan’s attention.)
17 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” (God instigated this whole process where multiple people have died and Job’s stuff was taken from Him.)
18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind (maybe even hurricane force) swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” (Dead servants, animals and now his children, all from God instigating it.)
20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart . The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; (which is His right because He gave it to Job just as all things belong to Him) may the name of the Lord be praised.” 22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
So in this situation God had complete control. He gave permission to Satan to do what he wanted except he couldn’t harm Job physically. God did not stop Satan so things happened according to His will.
Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Again it is God who instigates this whole situation.)
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.” 6 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.” (So this is God stretching out His hand)
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes. (So we see that God allowed Job, a person who was righteous, to be physically afflicted.)
9 His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!” 10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" (Both blessing and calamity can come from God.)
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
So does God cause hurricane force winds that do damage to our possessions and harm both the righteous and the unrighteous, obviously so. He can do it for judgment on sin, or it appears it may have been in Job’s case, to humble and purify him. In dealing with this one man others died but is God unjust in these actions, by no means. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
Here’s something you can take away from what God instigated towards Job and all the people that He took back their lives from. Our very lives are at the mercy of The Most High God, Creator of heaven and earth. He will do what is righteous in His own eyes, with mankind whom He has given the gift of life to.
Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Knowing that your death is just a moment away, it would be nice to have some everlasting good news, here’s some eternal good news (gospel).
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth — to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
All Glory and Honor belong to the Lord Almighty both now and forever more.