Sorry, didnt mean to forget you. I will respond later. It is bedtime for me.
That’s a slippery slope @beaglelady. When? Where? How? Why?
No Christian here (to my recollection) has ever denigrated Job or any other book of the bible in any such way. Just as it would never occur to us to think less of Jesus’ parables if they were “only” stories to make a point and not actual events. So I’m glad that you are given pause to consider that to rightly handle God’s word may in many cases mean delving deeper into it than treating it as mere historicity.
From 2 Timothy 2 starting with verse 14:
Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.
To that end, and to deal with my own shortcomings first, I apologize for the times I have participated in mockery of those who don’t think as I do. There are times when God has used mockery or even sarcasm to drive home points (thinking of Elijah at Mt. Carmel or Jesus talking with scribes and Pharisees). But in general mockery is not condoned in scriptures, and we can and should do better here. Sorry about that. You are one who obviously values, perhaps above all else, what you receive from scriptures.
From those same scriptures (Psalm 19) we read:
The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
In other passages we read that trees, rocks, and hills themselves cry out their praises to God and that even if we remained silent, we would be unable to silence the rocks. (Isaiah 55:10-12 or Luke 19:40)
In fact Isaiah gives a beautiful passage which not only affirms your testimony about God’s word, which we also here affirm along with you; but may also help you see how creation too gives testimony about God (which you seem hesitant to affirm along with us). Please note here that the holy scriptures do not share in your hesitancy: (beginning at Isa 55:10)
For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and do not return there until they have watered the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
For you shall go out in joy,
and be led back in peace;
the mountains and the hills before you
shall burst into song,
and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Do you notice in the passage above how the writer speaks of water coming down from heaven causing plants to sprout and grow? To note how God’s creation works - how waters bring growth in no way lessens God’s role in making that all happen. That is why so many here are eager to be attentive to both God’s revealed word in scriptures and his revealed works which also have important things to teach us about God. Since the prophets and apostles and Jesus himself make use of their knowledge of creation to teach, we too wish to also attend to what God has to show us both in scripture, and in His creation. We hope you can, along with those prophets and apostles, also begin to acknowledge with other believers what the heavens are declaring of the glory of God.
I will have to put my trust in God’s word rather than man’s.
Amos 4:7 "I also withheld rain from you
when the harvest was still three months away.
I sent rain on one town, (south east England)
but withheld it from another. (whatever place near by)
One field had rain;
another had none and dried up.
Liam, you said, “When the rain falls, we can and should Thank God for his providential care of us and his creation. However, that does not mean God said from heaven “let it rain on the south east England”. Nor is a lightning bolt hitting my house during a storm God’s justice being poured out against me.”
Why would I say, “I will have to put my trust in God’s word rather than man’s” in reference to that statement. The reason is because of what Amos 4:7 shows us, which God had personally and with precise control, chose to do to Israel. Job is also a good example. So with His interaction then with His creation and scripture being saturated with His history of interaction, I have been persuaded that God still is that interactive now. So when you said the above statement, you who are, just as I am, a mere man, are stating you know or believe God was not or would not be directly and decisively involved with those events. But God’s words and history oppose that opinion. I don’t know if He directs every single bolt of lightning, every drop of rain ect, but can you say for certain, God did not personally direct the rain to south east England for a specific reason at that specific time. Do you know the prayers of His people in that area, do you know what fields God may want to water. Do you know what streams or rivers downstream from there needed more water to help farmers in that area or the food for fish that rain can bring to a flowing river? What about the ground water level that may need to be raised, is that in your thoughts, it is in Gods. What about that wicked, hard hearted farmer who has been rejecting the God who his mother had told him about all his life, do you not think God wanted to humble him and bring him to repentance by destroying all his crops with too much water. Those who put their trust in weather patterns don’t see that God can cause it to rain right there, right then, to adjust the temperature to affect the weather in a different location the next day.
Who can comprehend the mind of God, who can counsel Him on how to run the universe? Does mankind know when to lift up or to abase a man? Will a man tell God He can’t take back the life He gave to any or all of mankind? God’s power, knowledge and wisdom are so far above man’s.
A man’s life is a vapor, as a morning fog which appears to be something but when the sun rises it fades away. What is man that you are mindful of him Lord? If you did not show mercy to us, we would all be consumed.
So, my response of “I will have to put my trust in God’s word rather than man’s.” was appropriate. It was a true, proper and a godly response. It was a response that lifted up God’s word over the opinion of a man’s.
Are you are having trouble whipping your fellow Christians into shape? you know, those miserable, degenerate offenders who don’t share your
opinions godly and infallible judgments? Help is on the way! I present the Ship of Fools Biblical Curse Generator. Smite away! They all deserve it!
Here’s a sample:
Thou shalt be captured by Midianite maniacs, O thou armpit of Satan!
If I read between the lines properly, it appears you are agitated about something I said. Would you please explain where I strayed from scripture in the statement that apparently bothered you.
Here we return to the subject of Hermeneutics. Your statement to @beaglelady assumes your reading of scripture is correct and the rest here are reading it incorrectly. I can’t/won’t speak for @beaglelady, but many here will see that as a show of arrogance not godliness.
That’s not a judgement, more an FYI.
Liam, since I don’t know what scripture reference it was that I spoke about to you or others that appears to have bothered beaglelady, I really can’t address it.
If my assuming that my understanding of certain scriptures is correct and others believe that I am wrong and their understanding is correct, how does that make me more arrogant or ungodly then they?
Perhaps it is not what you say so much as how you say it. Whatever it is, your posts seem to rub folk up the wrong way. Why do you think that might be, Cody?
Liam, did my last post to you rub you the wrong way and if so why?
Liam, when I said last post to you, I ment the one about rain in south east England.
The more I read about God controlling the weather, the more I understand that all of creation declares His glory. When people say show me proof there is a God, all I have to do is point to all of creation.
Rom 1:118 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
But then they will say, “That’s not proof”. I have even known confessing Christians say the same thing. But now I understand that it’s a darkness that is in them that hinders them from seeing it. I have gone for a long time with a haze in me that did not let me really see and understand God’s glory in His creation. We can be blinded by a naturalistic view of creation, for instance, concerning the topic of weather. All my life I’ve heard the weatherman tell me what’s going to happen, how this front is coming or about high and low pressure systems. It was just so, natural, not God centered at all. But since I have been flooding my mind with the scripture along this line of thought it has totally changed. An unenlightened mind along this line, as I have had, would read the Psalms and when they spoke of God riding the clouds or He was in the storm ect would read it with no since of awe, it was just sort of, you know, poetic. But now it’s more, YEAH!! AWSOME!!! The Sovereign Lord is ruling over His creation. He’s showing mercy and kindness or judgment.
My sight has been blinded to His personal and intimate involvement with all His creation, because I listened to carnal minded people, instead of renewing my mind with His Word in this area and listening to my Lord.
Read this. This is very intimate and involved.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
So by searching the scripture with a heart to know God, by His Spirit, He has brought the light of truth into my spirit. And through that, He will receive more glory and honor from one of His children. And by all this, He continues the process of salvation and leading me in the path that leads to eternal life.
You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being. To God be the glory, both now and forever more.
I’d gently and warmly suggest that it if you say that anyone who takes meteorology seriously and/or who disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture is in darkness, carnal minded, blinded, in a haze, and uninlightened whereas you’ve had the haze lifted, being more God centred than others, are renewing your mind with his word, and listending to the Holy Spirit that’s going to rub folk up the wrong way. You get that right?
As to a couple of specific examples: You imply that if we all ‘just’ read the Bible with a heart to know God we’d all come to the same conclusion as you. That’s going to annoy folk too becuase it implies that they are not reading the Bible with a heart to know God. How are we to say they are not?
Or how about this: there is a diffence between saying “I believe that John 3:16 says X” and “the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that John 3:16 says X”. The former allows others to dialogue and disagree, that latter shut down dialogue and renders all discussion moot. Afterall, if the Spirit revealed it who are we to disagree? One can still believe that the Spirit has revealed something to us without making it part of our argument. If there Holy Spirit really has revealed it to us then surely the point will stand on its own. No?
Look I’m not getting at you, Cody. I’m sure you are a nice guy; you are obviously incredibly sincere. I’m not even sure whether you even mean for it to come across as divisive as it does. All I’m suggesting is that you consider your language and change your tactics. I’m not convinced this one is working for you, mate.
For me, I see gods glory in creation all the same. I see the glory in it from ecology and evolution. I see the glory in a god who set up a universe to result in all we have such as weather guided by his laws. I see the glory of god in his stories that combine fiction, reality, history, fantasy, doctrine, paradigms, and so on.
Of course, God’s weather control is also seen in Matthew 5:45…He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
This was in the context of loving your enemies, and implies God’s love and care for all. It also seems to imply that nature (with God at the helm) does not discriminate based on our works and actions. Living in a drought prone area, I have commented that evidently God sees us as neither just nor unjust, as he has not sent us rain…but that is another verse.
So, the implication for evolution seems to be that God is in control, but he allows his creation to work as designed, leading to what we see happen around us.
Liam, you missed the point. All meteorology can do is see a short ways in the future. And actually all it sees is what God is doing. The point I was making about the rain in England, is all you know for certain is that it rained. You have no idea why God made it rain. The statements that I made of all the things God may have wanted to accomplish through the rain, is in the same vein of how God answered Job. You see rain, Gods sees His will being done at that moment, His plans being fulfilled. You see rain; but God has given us a glimpse behind the scenes in the history that has been recorded in scripture about His interaction with Joseph, Job and a multitude of others. These are not just miracles done once in a millennium; these are only some of the things He has allowed us to see. But He is active and involved all the time. Jesus said, John 5:17"My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
As far as rubbing people the wrong way that is neither my intent nor my concern. My purpose in life is to glorify the Father and the Son and to love my neighbor, that is all. I have seen people rubbed the wrong way because of saying something as simple as, “If you look at a woman to lust after you have already committed adultery in your heart”.
I’ll be honest with you, Cody, that sounds like the ultimate denial of responsibility. Did you even read my last reply? If you can’t see from all the replies here that there is more going on than people being offended at God’s word there is not much I can do.
So… At this point, I’m out, I’m afraid. All the best with all your endeveours, Cody. Blessings.
This in the flow of the topic of the thread. I say….
All meteorology can do is see a short ways in the future. And actually all it sees is what God is doing. The point I was making about the rain in England, is all you know for certain is that it rained. You have no idea why God made it rain. The statements that I made of all the things God may have wanted to accomplish through the rain, is in the same vein of how God answered Job. You see rain, Gods sees His will being done at that moment, His plans being fulfilled. You see rain; but God has given us a glimpse behind the scenes in the history that has been recorded in scripture about His interaction with Joseph, Job and a multitude of others. These are not just miracles done once in a millennium; these are only some of the things He has allowed us to see. But He is active and involved all the time. Jesus said, John 5:17"My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
But this is apparently what bothers people the most.
Jesus raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons and the religious people said He did it by the power of Satan. I show you scripture of some of God’s interaction with mankind that He was gracious enough to pull back the veil and reveal to us and I declare the good news that God has not stopped being personally involved in His creation and the response is, I rub people the wrong way. Like the Pharisees you miss the point. By their understanding and traditions they missed what God was doing right then.
Now, no doubt, because of what I just said, some people would miss the point that I was making about God being still alive and active in His creation and instead say, “See, here you are trying to compare yourself with Jesus and us with the Pharisees, that is no way to win friends and influence people. By saying this you accuse us of hypocrisy and judge us, and justify yourself as being just like Jesus. You leave no room for discussion” When all I am saying is, God is still alive and well and is still Sovereignly ruling over His creation as He has from the beginning. Isn’t that good news? If He isn’t, why should anyone request anything from Him? Don’t pray for rain, don’t ask God to deliver your children from the power of sin and the Devil. Don’t ask God to supply you with work so you can feed your family, ect.
I say God pulled back the veil, cleared up the haze that was in me because of the years of understanding the weather in a natural way, to see God’s intimate, personal and sovereign involvement at this very moment, and the idea behind the response is, NO, God is not personally involved right now. It’s just some natural laws He established billions of years ago. I am considered stubborn or self-righteous or whatever, by not leaving room for a gracious dialogue with people because of my declarations of faith. And yet others declare their beliefs and I am supposed to acquiesce and acknowledge they may be correct so that the dialog may continue or their pride is not shaken.
A major point of this thread is that through what is recorded in the scripture, God has pulled back the veil on some of His interaction with His creation to show us the purpose and plan behind the things that look to the veiled mind as the natural flow of things. Whether it is the weather or the lifting up or putting down of rulers or kingdoms on lowly individuals; God is the Sovereign ruler over all His creation and who can fathom His knowledge, wisdom and power. Instead of rebuttal and offense this should bring shouts of AMEN! THE LORD ALIMGHTY REIGNS!
Job 42:1 Then Job replied to the Lord:
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
3 [You asked,] ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 ["You said,] 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."
Cody, I admire your steadfastness. It does seem that in your change of heart from seeing weather being controlled by nature to being controlled by God, you retained the paradigm of Nature’s actions and God’s actions being separate. One alternative of course is holding that nature’s actions are also God’s actions and are inseparable.
One question, how do you interpret the verse of God’s sending rain on the just and the unjust?
Oh gracious Father, you who surround me with your grace and love.
You whose presence fills your creation and sovereign hand guides it.
How great are your thoughts and everlasting mercy towards us.
Keep me from arrogant sins and show me the paths of righteousness that lead to salvation.
Who can enter your presence; he who puts all his trust in the Son whom you love and who walks in the paths of righteousness.
If not for your mercy we would all be consumed, but you delight in the repentant and humble heart of a sinner and will show him the salvation of God.