I do not think that the fact that we can and do choose to sin diminishes Christ’s act, in fact it increases the value 10,0000 fold.As you say, if sinning is somehow inate then we have diminished, even negated the responisbility for it. That God would forgive deliberate transgressions would seem to me to be amazing.
The other apsect is motivation. Most reigions demand a certan standard of religiious behaviou over and above the basic day to day stuff. They do it because it is required, not necesarily because they want to. It is not so much buying a stairway to Heaven but appeasing and sucking up to a vindictive and vicious God. Christianity turns that on its head and claims that God wants us as we are. Yes there are standards but they are not religious orceremonial. We pray for a reason other than it is sunset. And we pray whenever it is needed rather than 5 tmes a day (or whhatever)
Scripture says that god does not want meaningless sacrifices or offerings Christianity (should) take that away, although the Higher churches seem to revel in it.
Except…
1 John 1: 5-10 NRSVUE
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him while we are walking in darkness, we lie and do not do what is true; 7 but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Nor is there a claim that having a relationship with god requires a certain standard of both honesty and acceptance.
What I am saying is that the forgiveness of sins is not reliant on us recognising God or accepting it.
Like others you see to be confusing having a reltionship with God with forgiveness of sins. God forgives sins, period. Our acceptance is a part of our forming a relationship, it does not somehow ratify the forgivenss and the contra that sins that are not confessed are not forgiven. The problem only occurs if we try and convince God that we are not sinful or deny a sin that should be (has been) forgiven.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
This sounds to me very much like habit formation. Those who choose to pursue the desires of the flesh (i.e. things which are not good for the spirit) will lose the ability to do otherwise. This also explains the other passages such as 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. By the time we have learned to speak, it is inevitable that we have chosen to follow the examples set by others in pursuing things which are not good for the spirit and losing the ability to do otherwise in those things.
Thus it is not impossible to not sin, for we make the right choice in many things to do what is right. But with no perfect example to follow, the probability of making the right choice in all things is vanishingly small. I do not think we were meant to navigate the moral landscape of life without the help of God, let alone to do so in a world filled with so many bad examples. And when we do make the wrong choice we become chained to a bad habit (a slave to sin) which is very hard to change.
And I see the same thing being said in Genesis 4:7 when God advises Cain. Cain is at a crossroad where he must choose the pattern of his whole life. And the wrong choice will start us down the road of a bad habit that becomes more and more difficult to change.
You seem to be suggesting that if you are “righteous” you don’t Sin at all, which is the topic under discussion in the bible verse I quoted, which is quite clear in the answer.
Correct. Everyone sins so no one is righteous. Except for Jesus who, if we confess our sins, will forgive us and cleanses us from unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make Jesus sacrifice in vain.
If we sin and yet say we are righteous (justified in sinning), we make Jesus sacrifice in vain.
If you are righteous, you have no sin to be forgiven. To be righteous is to be in right standing with God.
Our righteousness is not our own. It is a gift through faith and confessing our sin… we confess that Jesus died for us, forgives all our sin (past, present, future), and then we can have fellowship and get to know Him. It does take time to get to know him through his Word. His name Jesus means, “to save”, “to deliver”. Once we know Him, we will always know Him.
This is the oldest dodge in the history. There will always be those who say their behavior doesn’t matter because they must be considered “righteous” because of something else. Whether it is political position, social class, family, money, or knowledge, this all amounts to the same thing – some people getting a free pass to do whatever they want. It is forgiveness/sanctification transformed into indulgence/entitlement and it changes Christianity into an evil religion.
Irrelevant. The demons know Him also. Salvation by knowledge is the gospel of the Gnostics not the gospel of Christianity.
Yes the Christian gospel is salvation by the grace of God. And its essence is the repeated refrain of Jesus: “your sins are forgiven so go and sin no more.” Forgiveness and sanctification are thus intertwined. Forgiveness is only given so that we may change, and change will teach us how much more forgiveness and change we really need.
No. That free pass theology is indulgence and entitlement. The Bible does not agree with this.
Romans 2:4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Part of the problem is they take a phrase like that (which is true) and don’t read on.
Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Not in the right way. The gospel (good news) is spreading the knowledge that Jesus saves by grace through faith.
faith - complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
How can you have complete trust or confidence in someone without knowing them?
I dont agree with free pass theology, but it still stands that Christ forgives all sin.
Heb 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
The wrong way – by choosing tom not believe God. The mere existence of the Tree was an indication that humans were eventually meant to eat from it.
The types of literature involved are sorts where the details can be taken literally within the account in order to understand the theology, but are not intended to be literal apart from the story itself.
It can’t be because it doesn’t address anything scientific.
I go with second-Temple Judaism: the Garden narrative is just the first misstep, involving a spiritual/heavenly rebellion (the Nachash/serpent) and a human rebellion; the Nephilim incident is the second such rebellion, and the Tower of Babel was the third – and the Messiah was expected to “fix” all three.
It groans because of us (I think Paul drew that from second-Temple Judaism but have no source handy to verify that) – we humans were supposed to supervise Creation but abdicated to deceptive self-outcasts from Heaven.
I think the above verse supports Richard: it presumes that those who “walk in the light” still sin. If “righteous” equates to “walk in the light as He is in the light” then Richard’s point is sound – though that requires a distinction between sins being forgiven and us being cleansed from sin.
If that’s a dodge, it has a good advocate in Paul – and he denies that “behavior doesn’t matter”.
Both can be argued from the Bible; it’s one of those things that is in tension: all sins are forgiven, but we are to confess sins to be forgiven, and according to Peter in baptism our sins are forgiven. Trying to reduce it to one position requires ignoring some of the ‘evidence’; taking it all together just says it’s a situation beyond our comprehension.
Yes! The whole test justification was a horrible idea. This is one of the reasons I like the comparison to the parental commandment “don’t play in the street or you will die.” The street exists for a good reason. Timing is important.
Yes but I don’t agree with your narrative. The second misstep was Cain and Abel and that spiraled into rampant murder and the spread of evil to dominate mankind. I don’t believe in any “nephilim incident” or angels breeding with women or fairy tale giants. And God’s real objection to the Tower of Babel was human unification (as was made evident in God’s response to this as well as what He said) and the point was to avoid a repetition of what led to the flood.
6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do;
Beginning of what? The beginning of what God saw them do before the flood – a civilization/culture dominated by evil. Breaking them up into many cultures stops this because competition will limit the depravity into which they can descend. Sounds like an evolutionary strategy doesn’t it? Of course! – a tried and true method God has already used.
The rabbinic literature is full of contradictory speculations. They were meant as food for thought rather than divine revelation. And this creationist idea is no different – imagining that the curse in Genesis was some divine magic warping the earth. I agree with St.Roymond in this and there was no such thing – it is groaning because of mankind appointed as stewards of the earth are not doing well in the task given them.
Yes He denies this the same as Jesus for neither are an advocate of this dodge of responsibility. Forgiveness does not end ONLY because it is a continuing process – repent → forgiven → change → revealing new sins → repent → forgiven → change → … Remove any of these steps and the process is discontinued – NO FREE PASS!!!
Slavery, child abuse, genocide, and misogyny are argued from the Bible.
I would only disagree if righteousness (apart from Jesus) while sinning is what is being suggested. Being cleansed from sin is the process for sins being forgiven. Baptism is symbolic of that cleansing which brings us to the next point.
All sin is forgiven is kind of like the tree falling in the forest. We were not all there to see and hear as He hung on that tree. So, in order for forgiveness of sins to have some effect on us we need to hear and believe the good news passed down to us through His Word.
Baptism (adult) is the next step as an outward public display representing our confession that we are sinners and accept Jesus as our Savior by grace through faith (which then must continue to grow). A lot can happened between being submerged in the water and coming back up as a new creation. I believe we all have a personal testimony somewhere in there.