One of the Bible readings at my church this morning was Genesis 4 Verses 1-12 and I noted this verse
Genesis 4 : 7
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Which ever translation you use the meaning is the same. God insists that it is possible not to succomb to sin.
This is a continuation of the Garden narrative. It is part of the same story from which the notion of corruption and overpowering sin is claimed. It would seem that God thinks that we can defeat sin without His help.
I am not belittleing the sacrifice of Christ or His triumph over sin, but I am putting it into perspective.Sin exists, but it is not enevitable or irresistable. If we do succomb Jesus has cleansed us, but it is possible to resist. It is possible for people to be sinless, or at least not broken and corrrupted.
It certainly questions a number of theological statements such as total depravity and even views on gender and sex that claim that any variation from “being straight” is sinful in and of itself. Sin is related to willed behavior and can be mastered.
I think also the depiction of sin as something outside ourselves, seeking to harm us like a wild beast demonstrates a very different concept from what is currently common.
If we are talking about temptations to rebel, to do what is against the will of God, then yes, it is possible to resist and overcome temptations. If it would not be, then the commandments in the biblical scriptures would be meaningless bullying.
At the same time, according to the NT scriptures and the testimony of honest minds, we need to confess that we have sinned. There is only one human who did not fail to live according to the commandments of God. Even if we have the possibility to obey God, too often we have said or acted against the will of God. Too often we have put our will and desires (or the will of someone else) above God, which is rebellion.
The process of growing towards the direction where we do less bad and more good is called sanctification.
It is at this point I would challenge you. It would imply that there is a spiritual element necessary for improvement and without it we are doomed to failure. That is still religious dogma. God deliberately did not make it necessary for him to be part of our lives, but gave us a choice. He wants us to want it. Your implication would be tht we cannot live without God, whihc is clearly not the case. Many people do. And, as shown elsewhere Matthew 25 implies that it is the actions not the beliefs that tip the scale.
I am not saying that actions can “buy us salvation” but they are a proof of what is inside us (As per James) Religion can give a guide to behaviour but God put His laws inside us so it is possible to obey them without being consciously religious.
IOW there are those who do not wish (or even identify) a relationship with God but who will still ostensiblybehave in a righteous manner and God will still forgive the errors that they make, knowing their hearts are still pure. (Ultimately it is still Christ bringing them in because His acctions forgive their sins)
What I am vehemently against is the notion of depravity or brokeness that must be resolved by a relationship with God. Religion, discipleship, or whatever you wish to call being a Christian must be voluntary and not a necessity.
Looks like I may have the privilege of being the first to call this thread a ridiculously simplified approach–even naive-- to teaching about sin, morality, offerings (gifts/sacrifices) to God, and fraternal mistreatment.
Observations:
A. Cain and Abel offer stuff to Yahweh and Yahweh “had regard” for the stuff that Abel offered but did not “have regard” for the stuff that Cain offered.
Lesson 1: Don’t offer Yahweh stuff that doesn’t interest Him, whether or not someone else offers Him stuff that does interest Him.
Lesson 2: If you do, don’t get incensed if He is not interested in the stuff you offer him. You should have asked Him first what interests Him, if He hasn’t already told you what interests Him.
Lesson 3: Don’t let your disappointment over your failure to please Yahweh lead you to kill another person.
B. In verse 7, sin is something outside of you, laying or crouching “at the entrance” and “its desire” will be for you.
When, if ever, is sin not laying at “the entrance”, and where is the entrance that it lays near? Trivia: An earlier occurrence of “desire” (or longing) is in Genesis 3:16, "To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”
Lesson 4: Each of us has desires and, presumably, what we desire can and will rule over us, and often if not always, wanting has consequences. To avoid the consequences that you don’t want, master the desires that you have. Easy-peasy, no?
C. Cain and Able’s world was substantially different than the world we occupy today. The desires that we have are substantially different and more numerous than the desires of grain farmers and sheep herders millennia ago. And desires change over each person’s life time. But the warning in Genesis 4:7 remains the same: Master your desires. Simple, eh? Just resist them and your life will be hunky-dory.
Get a clue, Dick. I mentioned sin and morality, and consequences. You’re just whining because I added Offerings which was the whole reason for Cain’s dissappointment. Your simple “answer to sin” millennia after the story about Cain and Abel is woefully insufficient in 2024. Besides, do you even believe the story of Cain and Able is true? If not, then your reasoning is deficient…
this is an interesting message I get this night, a reminder.
of course yes we have the power over the sin and I can back up my argument with these verse:
• Corinthians 10:13:
" No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."
• Colossians 1:13-14:
“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.” It highlights God’s authority to rescue us from sin’s dominion
But I think we cannot overcome ourselves without help of God
It is not abut whehter I think the story is true. I am referring to people who use the Genesis 2-4 narrative as a mandate for claiming that the world is corrupt and incapable of doing good without God.
And the point is that it is not God who has condmened humankind, or even accpeted that humankind was corrupted by Adam. Sin is a by-product of independant thought (sentience) and was niether created by Adam (or the serrpent) nor something God had not taken ito account when creating us.
Religious groups and Christians in particaular are purpettually trying to convince us that we must repent “or else” But God is not lookingfor conscripts or frightened followers who are only there to save their skins from Hell. God wants people to want to know and relate to Him. Neither the carrot (Heaven) or the Stick (Hell) should come into it. We align ourselves with God (good) because it is just that, good. There is no need for coercion or threats.
Although I think deriving an entire theology of sin from that one statement is probably missing the actual point of the verse and giving it way too much significance, I will note that God does not actually tell Cain how he would manage to rule over it. Why should we assume that the way you rule over it is shear willpower, which by itself does not work for overcoming an unwanted behavior, ask any addict, rather than relying on the Holy Spirit?
I assume that many people have the hope to do what is good, both Christians and non-Christians. Yet, what we do may have bad consequences. There may be many things we want and we do not always chose the alternative that is best for others or even ourself. In addition, we have limited understanding and even when we want good, we may chose alternatives that lead to bad consequences. Even Paul noted this dilemma in his letter to the Romans (7:18-19).
When the Holy Spirit is involved and we cooperate with Him, we experience an internal change in our motivations. That leads to positive changes in our behaviour. In addition, Holy Spirit may guide us to make choices that have good consequences. This opens up possibilities to a positive change that would not happen without the ‘spiritual element’.
This kind of cooperation with the Holy Spirit is a growth process where we increasingly start to reflect the good nature of God. Those who have advanced along this road are not ‘superhumans’ or infallible persons, they are ordinary people with their weaknesses and temptations, but what they do leads to better fruits.
Because there is nothing in the text to suggest the inclusion of the Holy Spirit or God.
I have known several erople who have given up smoking b will power. Drugs may be more difficult but there u still a mental element to cleansing.
That will be the case whether the inspiration is from self or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not control us or anything else to preven it.
You are stilll talkiing about becoming a Christian or at least associating with God. If God did give us free will and choice then that means we can live without Him otherwise it is not a free choice. That applies to living and also to any future life. If there is a Hell (or Heaven) it makes the choice at gun point. That is not freedom, it is coercion.
Regardless of what we might read or understand from Scripture, if God is the God we have identified, He cannot impose Christianity onto the whole world “or else”. We have to rectify what Scripture (and the human writers) say and our own view (understanding) of God
Aligning ourelves wiith God is for its intrinsic value not for reward or to stave off a punishment. Otherwise it is not a choice but a requirement.
Luke 17: 10 We are unworthy servants, we have only done our duty.
Last time I looked, abilities and principles were not the same. How Santa (or God) achieves their goals and principles will depend on their powers and abilities. I am not God, so there is only so much i can do, but what I do is in line with the principles I have establiished.
Only if you actually believe the story of Cain and Abel is true and that Yahweh’s statement to Cain in Gen. 4:7 says more than “Align yourself with me and everything will be okay.”
However, if you don’t believe the story of Cain and Abel and can explain how Gen. 4:7 says something other than “Align yourself with me”, then my analogy succeeds and you simply don’t know what you’re talking about and don’t understand my analogy, which doesn’t surprise me…
Popularity has nothing to do with principles either.
What is it abput principles that confuses people?
It would seem that it is your understanding that is failing, not mine.
Iam not claiming tht to align with God means you must have all Godly powers.
I am saying that you identify what God beleives in and try and follow those principles.
Simplistically,God is Love so you follow the princoiples of love laid out in 1 Cor 13.
(or do I have to spell it out further for you)
I do believe we have some amount of free will. God does not force us to become believers or saints, He gave us a possibility to chose how we respond to the good news about Christ.
We all have also freedom to chose whether we want to do good or not.
I also believe that we cannot come to God unless He is calling us. Luckily, God showed His willingness to save us when He sent Jesus here. When God calls us, we have the freedom to accept the offer or decide we do not want to receive the gift.
Whether God calls specifically is more of a mute point. I would guess that He only makes a more direct approach to people who are already showing signs of acceptance. The Biblical calls at childhood like Samuel or Jeremiah would be in line with the notion of a chosen people who are expected to follow. I am ledss convinced that Jews have a free choice in the matter and the Bible would seem to bck that up. The chosen Race are set apart. The disensation to gentiles has less weight in terms of expecttion or calling. Even Paul was a Jew.
However it would seem that if we wish to follow and commit, the expecttions increase exponentially. Which is why I have recently tried to distinguish between wishing to folllow God’s principles and becoming a disciple. The commitment needed for discipleship may well not be right for eeveryone and to push for it may be counter productive and frighten some away. It takes a special type of person to become a Monk or even a Pastor.
