Wait, what? That’s quite a bad argument and flies in the face of convincing evidence that masks do work.
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That could get you censored or redacted for misinformation, too.
But you are talking about vaccine mandates not boosters and it is very ingenuous to pretend that there aren’t mountains of data pointing to the fact that the clear benefits of vaccines to both individuals and communities far outweigh the small potential risks. No one is talking about mandating booster shots.
I still don’t understand why people keep bringing this up as an example of not informing the public. The understanding of the role masks were playing in limiting the spread of a specific pathogen developed in real time and was communicated to the public in real time. There was no absolute objective truth about mask efficacy that was miscommunicated or hidden and then revealed. Science is about learning things and applying what we learn. Scientists had no choice but to learn and apply on the go because coronavirus was a novel pathogen. The fact that it is mutating means they have to continue learning and re-applying. We have a mountain of peer reviewed studies that show masks are effective at curbing the spread of coronavirus. You can only get so much mileage out of “Fauci changed his advice.”
This is a fallacy. Vaccine mandates are based on solid scientific evidence that vaccines work. Plus, we can watch how the passe sanitaire is effectively curbing the outbreak in France. https://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/will-bidens-mandates-work-macrons-vaccine-pass-gamble-may-hold-some-clues/article_463bf560-afa6-5a54-b339-eda997c08556.html
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I’m a primary care doc, like @jpm. Does this help?
- PCR is very good at making sure we don’t mistake flu for Covid. All the Covid diagnoses are confirmed by PCR. There is no cross reaction, contrary to a rumor that “flew” around
- Even NPR noted that upper respiratory diseases in general decreased, and asthma exacerbations dropped by as much as 50% in one retrospective report, with all the interventions to decrease Covid.
- We tested for flu in anything relevant that was not Covid positive, and it was very low. That correlates with #2.
I’m not able to talk about my own practice in detail, but I have seen quite a few die of Covid. The flu has never, ever been a tenth this bad. And that’s with social distancing, masking, and care that Fauci and Whitmer recommended and mandated.
I’m looking forward to more vaccination, and getting this pandemic under control. Communication is very important. However, some refuse to look at the CDC, NIH and other government and reliable sources, instead looking only at conspiracy theories. Do you have advice on how to help them?
I’ve had friends tell me that “Christians don’t act in fear.” However, that’s out of context. You don’t tell a brain surgeon to be less careful because he’s a Christian. What you do get is “peace that passes all understanding,” after, as in Philippians, casting all your cares on Him. That helps you make good, calm decisions in the midst of stress–and be more careful, not less.
This is to serve others–as Christ asked us to.
Thank you.
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There has been quite a bit in the news about how quickly people’s opinions have changed and how badly mistaken they realized their opinion had been once they actually got COVID if they had been against, hesitant or procrastinating getting a vaccine! Opinions don’t matter very much at all, except if they lead you to do the wrong thing or not do the right thing.
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God is definitely in control. He is with us through the groaning of this world and this present form of things. That still does not ameliorate that loving one’s neighbour would involve making the best statistical play in light of the evidence. Choosing statistical harm is malicious.
As for the controlling others, law is needed in almost every area of life. Regulations are needed to ensure safety. To live in a functioning society we agree on a legal and social contract of sorts and work with it despite messiness.
It is interesting that you constantly bring up fear-mongering as a way to avoid discussion or using humility as a shield to avoid changing your mind with the primary data and science.
Then later you refer to both sides argument as if the media is a both-sides marketplace of ideas. It is a conglomeration of profit-driven entities and complex agendas. The true both sides would be established experts in the field discussing best public health practices versus anyone else if you have to establish that.
The tone down fear-mongering a notch in the war comment is totally inappropriate. Our intelligence communities had identified this and had plans in preparation before Christmas and which were then communicated early to the government. Swift action on a global scale with the EU and NA as leaders would have saved countless lives and enormous amounts of money. This would have required a multi-national and federal effort not delegation to state’s autonomy. So yes, there were a catastrophic set of failures or chosen incompetence to that lead to our current situation. That is not exactly winning.
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I agree with you in your post, with the only caveat that we weren’t set up to deal with a pandemic–not adequately. With conspiracy theorists like those saying that Gates engineered the pandemic so he could make money (when he was warning of the pandemic’s possibility), also, it’s really hard for well meaning experts like Fauci and the WHO to get people to comply in a democracy. They did the best they could. Hopefully, we’ll learn better the next time around.
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I totally agree.
Whether Sars, ebola, or whichever disease you want to choose, they have not bee primary focal points with well-funded and established systems.
My sister worked on an ebola vaccine at the level 4 lab in Winnipeg. Funding and research was limited when a cost conscious government with an interesting attitude towards was elected. Then the ebola outbreak hit in 2013.
Should the bodily autonomy argument hold if mortality escalates? I don’t believe in a false freedom that sacrifices the other for my own comfort.
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I’m afraid that I disagree here. The worry was, that like toilet paper, enough of the public would hoard the initially available supply chain of masks so that medical professionals would be left without. That was a valid concern. Public health officials could have been forthright about this, but decided, perhaps correctly, that the public would have looked after number one regardless. So they chose to misinform that masks were ineffective anyways, in the hope of preventing a run. Maybe it worked. But do not complain afterwards that people do not believe public health guidance. The science did not change. More data was not necessary. This was always known to be a respiratory disease, and virtually by definition masks were helpful in preventing transmission. In any event, they certainly could not hurt.
The political messaging though out this pandemic, from the WHO and CDC down the local health authorities, has not followed the science so much as expediency. It has been one thing after another. “:Covid-19 is not yet a pandemic.” “Shutting down international travel will make the pandemic worse.” “Masks do not help.” “Children do not transmit the virus and pediatric cases are from the community.” “All vaccines are equally effective.” “The lab leak theory is a fringe conspiracy theory”. None of this followed the science. All of it was transparently driven by policy priorities and objectives of the body politic designed more to manipulate than inform the public. If no one believes anyone anymore, they have it coming.
I am vaccinated, carefully calibrate my social distancing, and wear a mask, because I actually do follow the science.
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That’s not my recollection. We were told that frontline workers needed them and that supplies were short. I had a box of industrial N-95s that I took to a nearby hospital and a box of surgical type that I took to our county first responders… no, they came and picked them up. Mask supplies in stores quickly became nonexistent and there were a lot of groups making cloth masks.
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If you look back to 2007 or '13 (I can’t recall the right year–I can look it up, but am studying right now), the CDC did studies on effectiveness of masks in H1N1 type situations. The conclusion was that they were not that great (especially cloth ones), and that they would not be the first line intervention. The studies have come a long way since then, too. Thanks.
That was very generous of you!
What were we told by the NIH and the CDC in the news last year? I think as I described.
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yes, sorry, I was just adding on to that. You were very generous. Thank you!
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Those making cloth masks were doing things like making them multi-layer and using coffee filters to make them more effective. I discovered that aluminum roof flashing material was just the right weight to make bendable nose strips. 
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Right, and we use cloth masks ourselves in the community, for my kids especially. My daughter has a very pretty one to use at school, where I think she is the only one who does wear the mask in her class. I think the original ones in the CDC old study were very simple and did not work nearly as well.
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Good for her. That is an indicator of maturity and strength.
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True, in terms of transmission and early symptoms (but not necessarily the latter), but I think it is better characterized as a vascular disease, because of the occurrence of microthrombi anywhere and everywhere in the body.
I know, studies show they “work”. First “work” needs to be defined. Works against what? Droplet transmission, yes, aerosol transmission…not nearly as much.
But you don’t need studies or test in a lab on how effective masks work against aerosol or to waste time testing it. We have real world data, though it is correlation, which is the lowest form, it is widespread massive data.
The very fact that flu is down (a droplet virus) and covid is up (aerosol virus). Test are only tests. This is real world data.
I mean if we could replicate our reduction of flu, why not with covid?
Above my head man, no clue what that means, sorry.
Morally speaking, that could be argued.
But I was speaking above more constitutionally. The executive branch can’t make that mandate, and he know this, and that is why he attempted some back door OSHA loop hole to enact it and it will fail in the courts.
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be disingenuous. My point was there isn’t enough data gathered on natural immunity. And I understand time is critical…so I get the desire to rush something that you think might work. But you just can’t rush things like this. What will happen when they find out without a doubt that natural immunity is better and those that died from the vaccine died for nothing. “oops” “At least only a few died”?
Again I am quite sure the courts will strive down the unconstitutional mandate, but you shouldn’t be making mandates on something you don’t have all the data for. All you have is data that says it does help most people and it is a very low risk.
A good leader has to look at ALL the data. There is reason the head medical guy in the military is not a 4 start chief of staff. The best way to minimize the loss of life is to pull our of every conflict and not train. As that is where 90%+ of injuries come from. But we have a job to do, so generals take that advice of the specialist, and make a decision.
Do you know how many nurses quit due to this executive order? Now we have overflowing hospitals, with even LESS staff.
Some states as of the other day showed only 265 ICU beds available and staffed. Above those 265 ICU beds are ANOTHER 1100 unstaffed ICU beds.
Was that a good idea to let the head of NIH or CDC run our country? No. A Presidential leader needs to run the country, look at all of the factors. The lockdown recommended by medical specialist was not recommended by economist. It wrecked more havoc in this country than we will know.
So I guess the problem is there are too many non-specified topics in this one topic and too many broad paint brushes used.
Even if I thought that vaccines will save the lives of many and everyone should get one, I still wouldn’t be for an executive order mandating them.
If congress passed a law mandating it, it would have a little bit more weight, but again, I am sure the judicial branch would strike it down.
Sorry, I am not using this as an example of not informing the public. Rather and example of giving advice like it is gospel and to questions that advice makes you “anti science”?
Good for France, I hope it works out for them. Like Sweeden, the world watched as countries experimented with a novel virus. Because we don’t know what to do, and to pretend with such certainty that we do know what to do and if you question that certainty you are looked down upon. That is my issue.
You could issue advice that vaccines are good for those that never got covid, And make a moral argument in a different country that there should be a mandate for those who never had covid. Though again in this country, an executive mandate is not wise.
Just the name of the title of this thread. There are many who died in the name of freedom. Sure one person who liters isn’t a problem, but if every one did, we would have a massive problem. So it is just 1 thing you have to comply to, and it will save lives. But what about the next time you need to comply? It’s a slippery slope, that lead to a revolution a few hundred years ago.
I am sure King George was thinking, it is just 1 more tax, sure. And had the colonist just paid it, we would probably all have British accents right now. That is exactly what freedom is worth, dying for.
What do you say about ILI? That is on CDC’s website. But yes I mostly agree with you. I would guess that flu cases are down 80% because of masks, 15% because of ILI and 5% because it was tested slightly less.
Advice at this point is hard…This would be like King George taking the tea tax away. I still think the revolution would have happened.
The fact that mostly governors put up a tone of mandates, and the CDC and NIH speaks about a novel virus like it is gospel studied for centuries. No one is going to listen to them (that hasn’t yet already.
So damage control is your best bet I think. Know and accept that 100% (I wouldn’t guess more than 70% of the nation is getting the vaccine. And figure out how to live you life like that. Take all the mandates away, and give information and choices. Then it might be possible to get near 70%. But I do believe if you never had a lockdown, never politicized it, and criticized those who questioned and just let people get the vaccine. I would have to guess 80% or more would get it.
yea, I do think this is abused. I don’t have fear, I am not scared of the govt. I have academic ideas of how it should work, and I vote based off of those thoughts. But if the govt (congress, vetted by the judicial system) mandated sterilization for all males with 1 kid. I would do it. Or if all of congress went liberal and freedom was taken from this country, I would not fret.
I would agree that too many can’t face the consequences of their actions like adults should. Like the chain smoker who quit, but now needs a lung and thinks he shouldn’t be on the bottom of the donor list. It sucks, but you made your bed, you gotta lay in it. If I got covid a 3rd time and died, and there was someone who needed the facilities more than me, i would glady give it up for them. But it isn’t just about me right? It is about me giving it to others. Where are the tests on how those with antibodies can give it to others les, as much, or more than those vaccinated?
I could agree with you there. Like a person who decided to drive drunk probably doesn’t want to kill anyone. But before that made that decision to drink, they knew if they would drive or not and knew the statistics is higher for them and I would call that malicious.
The problem would be that you would have to convince someone who doesn’t believe those statistics. If they don’t then it isn’t malicious. It might make you very mad, but it isn’t malicious.
And my point was that many people don’t trust the various agencies who have lied (or more likely have been wrong) so many times in the past.
Chantix. the anti-smoking, FDA approved drug made by Pfizer has been recalled due to a carcinogen presence. Pfizer recalls all lots of anti-smoking drug over carcinogen presence | Reuters
This is certainly not the first time and FDA approved thing has been discovered to cause harm.
So if someone who is aware of the many FDA approved errors and thinks this could be another. Would you really call the malicious for not getting it? I am not saying you have to agree with them, or like them for it, but by definition, it is not malicious.
I would say if you want a dictator, move to another country.
And if congress (the ones representing us) voted a law, and the judicial branch (the ones keeping them in check) allowed it. then yes, I agree that law is needed.
I am not saying a laws aren’t needed. I am saying the constitution I defended says this is how laws are made, and there are checks and balances. It is a rigorous process for a good reason, so multiple points of view and experience and studies can be considered before making one.
I don’t think that is fair. I don’t think @Christy or anyone else was fear mongering. I think the media does it often, and that article @Dale linked to was an example of that. Seriously. What good would it do to use a statistic of a sin wave starting at the bottom and looking at the top? You could pick any beach property profit from Feb to July and say 260% increase. If you did that, you would be trying to make it look like having beach property is an amazing investment. And it might be…but not from that one stat.
Can you with a straight face seriously say that article is not doing that? That is fear mongering.
I am not trying to avoid any discussion. Clearly I am outnumbered, and there is a ton to address. I am attempting to share my thoughts, this isn’t exactly a structured debate here. But what would you say it is that I am avoiding?
I am not using humility as a shield. I do think it would help others feel more at ease and less defensive if they were being condemned for questioning some data.
I am quite open minded. I came here as a YEC, and then my own OEC hybrid. But I am mostly now a creation evolutionist.
I just haven’t seen the data so show the vaccine is worth it for those who already got covid.
I am all for those who haven’t got covid to get the vax. Studies show the vax is way less risky than getting covid. I am not for the mandate of it. But that is a constitutional thing.
A catastrophic failure that lead to .05% of deaths (4mil deaths and 7.9 billion people)? I don’t know. I know you and others are mad, but looking at the big picture. 4.55mil people died from covid in a year and a half. Our country has spent a few trillion on it, who knows how much the world has spent. I won’t even include about the 9 tril economic hit due to lockdown in this country and who knows how much in the world.
13mil people died from starvation! Where is the outcry for that? Where is the trillions spent to save them?!? We are losing that war! How catastrophic is that!? About 300% more catastrophic!
800k a year are sex trafficed. That is terrible!
73 million abortions per year! That is 1800% more than covid!!! Where is there trillions spent to help or outcry?
I will quote myself from earlier…
This is NOT a knuckle dragging proVax vs knuckle dragging antiVax fight here, it is a real world issue with NUANCE. People of intelligence and integrity can reasonably DISAGREE on the best course of action. Two senior guys in the FDA just resigned because the White House was pushing them to approve boosters by September, and these were senior guys, not antivaxxers. Career guys at the FDA. Recently the British National Health Service vaccine advisory board refused to recommend COVID vaccination of kids, stating they were at such low risk from COVID even the minimum risk of adverse effects from vaccination. There is NOTHING about this situation that is cut and dried.
Wow. My own views have changed over time, too. Maybe you can tell us more about what your thoughts on that are. Thanks.
I guess pm would be in order if you desire. This is WAY off topic. If it was a YEC/OEC thread, then I would be happy to. Though I would say that more important than my guesses/beliefs, are humility and being fully aware that I might be completely wrong. But that it doesn’t really matter how wrong I am. It doesn’t change who God is or that He is loving, righteous, just and merciful.
Though anytime I get to tell others of the Mighty God I serve, I am more than happy to spend a LOT of time doing that. I plan on doing it for an eternity. lol
If anyone else is curious and doesn’t want to pm me, I have a blog where I talk about that topic.
I think I am allowed to post links as long as it isn’t on the first post. But mods please delete if I am in violation. I am not trying to drum up traffic or clicks or drive traffic from here… I get about maybe 10 clicks a year maybe and it’s more of a personal journal, thinking allowed than a social media presence.
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