Does practicing medicine require evolution to be true?

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Have a look at this video. This shows that genetics is out of sight more complex than we ever imagined.
The Noncoding Genome: Finding Treasures in our Junk DNA - YouTube

John L. Rinn is an assistant professor of Stem Cell and Regenerative Biology at Harvard University and Medical School and Senior Associate Member of the Broad Institute.

I see you have found something new to be wrong about.

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Getting immune system cells to help the cancer would be one way of evading the body’s defenses. Metastasis does not specifically require immune cooperation, though certainly immune cooperation could help metastasis. Blood cells circulate through the body all the time. A cancer cell getting loose into the bloodstream can spread the cancer without any special help from the immune system, for example. Also, the complexity of the genome is quite irrelevant to the question of cancer evolution. Cancer evolution takes the existing cell material and changes it, whether the starting material was more or less complex. Cells in our body are supposed to work together and do some growing and dividing, so it is relatively easy to turn cells into rogue cells. It’s not as if this is making cancer cells from scratch - this is messing up the controls on cell division to the point that certain cells can multiply more than they should.

Immune system cells are crucial in metastasis.
Crosstalk between cancer and immune cells: Role of tumor‐associated macrophages in the tumor microenvironment (nih.gov)
Metastasis is not about a cancer cell breaking off or getting loose and then spreading throughout the body. In carcinomas the carcinoma cells undergo a very complex multi-stop process called EMT, epithelial to mesenchymal transition. This allows them to go from and attached / fixed state to a mobile state. Exosomes (chemical messages) are passed to immune system cells which go and prepare the new site. They then return to the main site of the tumor and escort the cancer cells to the new site, where a MET process (reverse to EMT) to become fixed, attached cells again.
Exosomes: key players in cancer and potential therapeutic strategy (nih.gov)
In sarcomas it is the macrophages that transform themselves to metastatic cancer cells and then conduct the process of metastasis.

Your comment of: “Getting immune system cells to help the cancer would be one way of evading the body’s defenses” is equivalent to saying getting the police to assist the criminals to rob the federal reserve let’s say, would be a way of evading being caught!

The immune system cells are in cahoots with the cancer cells. They are involved in cancer development and progression, maybe not right from the start but at some stage after it.

There are cancer stem cells or what are known as tumor initiating cells. There is no cancer evolution. They have never created cancer in any lab animals using any method including CRISPR. All that they have created is transformed cells. The only time that a cancer was seen in a mouse was when Dr. Max Wicha M.D. and his co-researcher Dr. Michael Clarke PhD, grafted human breast cancer stem cells into a nude mouse. Then they saw the same tumor develop as in the human from which they took the breast cancer stem cells.

Cancer is being described as “uncontrolled cell growth”, they have lost the controls and keep dividing. This is not what is seen. All solid tumors display the characteristics of an organ. They are not just a bunch of cancer cells. A cancer tumor has a basement membrane, a stroma with a very complex extra cellular matrix, unique cells or what are called specialized cells in other organs, cancer stem cells (tumor initiating cells) and there are resident immune system cells. Furthermore there is crosstalk between all these cells, the stromal cells, the immune system cells and the cancer cells.

That is simply false.

I can show you paper after paper where alterations to p53 resulted in cancer in mice.

More to the point, genetic modification of p53 produced cancer stem cell phenotypes:

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I think you’re describing the grading of a cancer, which has to do with how many aggressive, nondifferentiated and differentiated characteristics it accumulates. Differentiated cancers are typically slow growing (but not always), and less aggressive. Aggressive, nondifferentiated cancers often retain fewer characteristics of the parent cell.

I didn’t read all the posts here, only scanned. But no one has mentioned the “lost art” or remedy of Fasting?

I have a friend, Tom Coghill who ran the wholistic clinic at St. Joseph Hospital, in Sagada Philippines who had very good success curing most cancers with Fasting. Actually, the only cancers he wasn’t able to cure were mid-stage kidney (because the kidney’s are essential to cleaning the body during fasting) and any cancers in the 4th stage where the patient was in a weaken state. Otherwise, he had 100% cure rate with those '“willing” to go through his procedures and protocol of juice fasting.

It’s very simple actually. The body will consume any foreign materials as fuel before it will attack tissue. That is the basic concept to it. Of course the body needs proper nutrients that are swiftly and easily absorbed to fuel the immune system and depress the digestive system. It’s fascinating and amazing that my Lord, our God has provided a means to remedy ourselves in an effective, natural means.

Not saying here, it’s the means to ALL healing and medicine. Just. that it’s a wonderful way to have some hope and control in our own lives that there are alternatives that have proven effective. Unfortunately, most people wait too long (weaken state) to give it a try. My dad, my mother in-law and a good friend all waited until it was impractical, despite my urgings early on. But, some people trust the system and their doctors more than the naturalistic form of cures. I don’t really know? I haven’t explored that hypothecy.

As for myself? I’ve been fasting off and on for decades. I’m in great health and cured many illnesses short of cancer thank the Lord. But, it’s been a godsend in many ways! Will it heal a broken bone or replace my physician? No. But, it is a “way” to most healings and well being! PSA over… Give me your thoughts or experiences? Thx, Ron

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Staging, from what I understand, is describing how the tumor develops from simplest form to invasive growth and metastatic cancer. Certainly the cancer doesn’t appear in its final form immediately. However the cancer is being described as an organ from the evidence seen in observation.

If you look at this paper Tumors as organs: complex tissues that interface with the entire organism (nih.gov)

you see at the start they talk about cancer as an organ,

QUOTE “Solid tumors are not simply clones of cancer cells. Instead, they are abnormal organs composed of multiple cell types and extracellular matrix. Some aspects of tumor development resemble processes seen in developing organs, while others are more akin to tissue remodeling

And they go on to say

QUOTE “Understanding the complex ways in which cancer cells interact with their surroundings, both locally in the tumor organ and systemically in the body as a whole,

And these guys are not the only ones. Here in this paper: The tumor microenvironment at a glance | Journal of Cell Science (biologists.org)

a rogue organ” they say.

QUOTE “Cancers are not just masses of malignant cells but complex ‘rogue’ organs, to which many other cells are recruited and can be corrupted by the transformed cells. Interactions between malignant and non-transformed cells create the tumor microenvironment (TME). The non-malignant cells of the TME have a dynamic and often tumor-promoting function at all stages of carcinogenesis ([Hanahan and Coussens, 2012](https://jcs.biologists.org/content/125/23/5591#ref-36))”

But they still adhere to evolution even though a little further down they talk about “the TME have many parallels with the processes of wound healing and inflammation, “

If the cancer evolved by random mutations and natural selection to be a collection of clones that organized itself into an organ, whether we want to call it a rogue organ or an abnormal organ, then at this rate it would be fish to man in just a thousand years, no sweat!

I would call cancer a novel organ because from what I have seen it is deliberately created in the body. I describe cancer as “stem cell mediated immunity, erroneously ignited in the body owing to negative beliefs under certain conditions, mostly of concurrent issues and ongoing emotional reactivity. And the immune system is involved, if not from the start then at least at the metastatic stage.

I am hoping you are aware that liver cells, kidney cells, skin cells, bone cells, and the other cells in different organs and tissues all have the same genome. They are clones of each other. Organs don’t form by mutations that occur after the single cell zygote stage.

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The various body cells have the same genome but they are not clones of each other. They have epigenetic modifications that affect gene expression to give the various phenotypes.
Organs form after the zygote stage by the actions of stem cells. And there are parallels between embryogenesis and cancer formation and indeed even metastasis.

Note: I am still reading some papers to answer you on the earlier post you gave.

That’s what clones are, cells that have the identical genome sequence.

They are still clones.

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Good question.
Staging refers to the degree of invasion and spread of a cancer (beyond the basement membrane, to distal sites, etc). Grading has to do with the degree of differentiation and aggressiveness of the malignancy.

Here’s a good description. Thanks.
Cancer Grade Vs. Cancer Stage | MD Anderson Cancer Center

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Firstly it needs to be said that the mutant p53 only appears in 40% of colorectal cancers, so it can hardly be called a main initiator.

I’ve read this and a number of other similar papers and from what I am seeing this is just not a big deal at all as far as research into cancer is concerned. The cancer stem cells are there and they using manipulated p53 to see what effects it might have. on the cancer stem cells.

The p53 has several effects but there is nothing here that we don’t see in wound healing / tissue repair and regeneration. This work does not broach the subject of how the cancer stem cells got there in the first place. That is the nitty gritty.

No one is saying that mutations in p53 are the only mutations that lead to cancer, only that p53 is one of the most common oncogenes.

You are trying to claim that mutations don’t lead to cancers. They do. Mutations even lead to the formation of cancer stem cells.

Wound healing and tissue repair does not involve the mutation of genes. Cancer does.

Yes, it does. They got there because of mutations.

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I am not going to go into my research here and in any case I was told it is not welcomed on Biologos.

What I can say is the mutations are not the cause of cancer. But the mutations are part of the show. They are not random.

Just think, there are hundreds of mutations to thousands of mutations in some cases that appear in people with the same type of cancers. There are enough SAME mutations for doctors to use as diagnostic signatures.

Sure there are many other mutations that are not the same because people’s cancers are unique to them. However, to get a large number the same, identical mutations, is evidence that it is not chance.

Several million people a year worldwide with the cancer having a genetic signature where the cancer is the same type is over the top extraordinary, impossible really, if we are going to call it random.

Wound healing and tissue repair does not need mutations, but we see many of the same processes take place.

And another thing is that we see cancer recur or return and the very same beasts. How come? With chemo there may be a case for saying well chemotherapy targets certain parts of the cycle so there are changes that render the drugs useless.

However with ionizing radiation it is a whole different kettle of fish. It is far fetched to say that cancer stem cells become resistant to radiation. There is no way Jose. They get zapped by the radiation. So how do they make another grand appearance? Don’t tell me you think the same random mutation reoccur… please.

The long and the short of it is that we are not simply meat robots governed by chemicals. We are embodied conscious beings and our consciousness is not confined to our brain. In a NDE I had back in the late 1980s I can assure you my consciousness infused the whole of my body when I chose to return to this life.

You claimed that genetic modifications to p53 would not result in cancer. They do. You were wrong.

You claimed that no one is really looking at mutations in p53 as the cause of cancer or for cancer treatments. This is absolutely false. I did a quick look and I could find many pharmaceutical drugs that directly address p53 function and ongoing clinical trials that address the same.

You claimed that cancer stem cells cause cancer, so it has nothing to do with mutations. That’s wrong. Mutations are observed to produce cancer stem cell phenotypes.

You are wrong at Every. Single. Step.

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