One of the few things in there that I’ve heard about before.
Nice information.
Thanks…some surprises for me too. I once read that R1a and R1b groups only entered the British Isles with the arrival of the Vikings. This data may have been updated or may still be true. But, of course, I did not think far enough back. These groups had histories before they were Vikings…
That actually sounds familiar.
I have some Viking blood from two different places, one on my mom’s side and one on my dad’s, so I got curious and did a college paper on them. I was surprised to find that Vikings ventured to and some settled in just about everywhere from the Atlantic to the Urals, mixing with locals everywhere they went. They even provided the imperial guard for Byzantium for quite a while!
well…I do from my father’s side…that arrival would have been about 9th century CE/AD or so…seems the Vikings got around…in more than one sense.
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Seems they spread more than just the wealth. 
You could put it that way!!! 
Notice also…in the above blurb, …there is NO mention of mass migrations from India “west” towards the area known as Canaan. The migrations mentioned (as far as this blurb goes) were from the Indus Valley towards the Himalayas, southeast Asia, etc…
…The only other contributions were Alexander the Great’s army contributing to the local gene pool and post-Exilic migrations of displaced Hebraic tribes …and all those pre-Vikings, of course.
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Jews carry the R-M124 gene, how is R-M124 similar and different from the R1a and R1b group?
Well and Cistern, or only wells in Eden
According to Alice C. Linsley blog Just Genesis : Challenge to Shaye Cohen's Portrayal of Abraham
Linsley wrote, "Genesis 3:15, the Edenic Promise received by Abraham’s ancestors who were rulers in the well-watered region of Eden. This promise is the origin of the Messanic expectation among Abraham’s people, who were not Jews, but Horites.
My question is: I wonder, were there only wells, or were there also cisterns there too?
Riversea…I made that comment to a different “poster” simply as a comment. The Vikings invaded the British Isles around eighth through the mid-11th centuries CE/AD—and so that haplogroup begins to appear in that island nation at that time. Those of us with ancestry interests, and who also happen to know we carry that haplogroup, are intrigued by this link to what they call “deep ancestry.” It does not mean that every person with R1a or etc is immediately related to every other R1a person…after all, the tenth century was a very long time ago.
But it does not much pertain to the topic here of Horite Hebrews and Abraham, etc.
But…getting back to that subject, below is from scirp.org…please read. There will be a test afterwards–(LOL)
This article aims at reconstructing history of R1a1 ancient migrations between 20,000 and 3500 years before present (ybp). Four thousand four hundred sixty (4460) haplotypes of haplogroup R1a1 were considered in terms of base (ancestral) haplotypes of R1a1 populations and timespans to their common ancestors in the regions from South Siberia and northern/northwestern China in the east to the Hindustan and further west across Iranian Plateau, Anatolia, Asia Minor and to the Balkans in Europe, including on this way Central Asia, South India, Nepal, Oman, the Middle East, Comoros Islands, Egypt, etc. This study provides a support to the theory that haplogroup R1a arose in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia and/or neighboring regions, around 20,000 ybp. Not later than 12,000 ybp bearers of R1a1 already were in the Hindustan, then went across Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor apparently between 10,000 and 9000 ybp, and around 9000 - 8000 ybp they arrived to the Balkans and spread over Europe east to the British Isles. On this migration way or before it bearers of R1a1 (or the parent, upstream haplogroups) have developed Proto Indo-European language, and carried it along during their journey to Europe. The earliest signs of the language on passing of bearers of R1a1 through Anatolia were picked by the linguists, and dated by 9400 - 9600 - 10,100 ybp, which fairly coincides with the data of DNA genealogy, described in this work. At the same time as bearers of the brother haplogroup R1b1a2 began to populate Europe after 4800 ybp, haplogroup R1a1 moved to the Russian Plain around 4800 - 4600 ybp. From there R1a1 migrated (or moved as military expeditions) to the south (Anatolia, Mitanni and the Arabian Peninsula), east (South Ural and then North India), and south-east (the Iranian Plateau) as the historic legendary Aryans. Haplotypes of their direct descendants are strikingly similar up to 67 markers with contemporary ethnic Russians of haplogroup R1a1. Dates of those Aryan movements from the Russian Plain in said directions are also strikingly similar, between 4200 and 3600 ybp.
Question: where does R1a1 haplogroup come from?
Question: what year, in BC/BCE terms, is “20,000 ybp”
Question: how many years between 20,000 ybp and the presumed lifetime of Abraham?
OK…no this is not a test! It just seems that one can read position papers showing this group – likely many others – with a long history that roams a significant area of the known world When was the Bronze Age?
It’s all interesting, and I did not expect to find this particular citation when googling. Seems that R1a and/or R1a1 got around…and went through many regions, including Central Asia, parts of India, and is found today in…
The gene that you said Jews carry is found in many or most Ashkenazi Jews and located in Syria/Iraq …not India (note).
As for those Horites you keep returning to…
this was discussed in earlier posts here…actually 14 days ago…Horites were “in the hill country of Seir,” per Genesis 14:6. That area is a region “between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Akaba” (see earlier citation in response to YOU, Riversea)…in other words, an area that is now part of the nation of Jordan…not India.
Please look up the definition of “cistern” and also of “wells.” What is the difference?
Look up the definitions of those words, Riversea. I am sure you are capable.
Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldees, not the garden of Eden. That is a whole other topic. Jews were also not called Jews in Abraham’s day and this is not even a question for the period of time you are presuming to be discussing. They may not have been living in what is now Jordan, so far as is known. Thus, calling them Horites is speculative in the extreme. They were Chaldeans at best…maybe something else. The text of the Bible does not tell us great detail.
I looked a bit at Linsley’s blog …but you will not learn, from reading her work, about the definition of wells and cisterns. Check your dictionary. Google the word “cistern.” Also google “well.”
The Garden of Eden’s exact location is controversial and, according to the biblical account, humankind was expelled from that grand place after the sin or rebellion of the original inhabitants. So it is not likely to be a useful discussion point for locating ancient peoples. …including the ancestry of Abraham. Long story. Sorry…it is just not…
Linsley has so many historical and other errors on that page it’s amazing. Not only will no one learn about wells and cisterns there but they’ll also learn a lot of things that are wrong.
I am not disagreeing with you…She is highly speculative–neither she nor you nor I nor anyone else on this site is such an expert on the reasons for using red ochre, for example. But if that is recognized then A-OK…but I wanted to focus more on something else in that response.
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@bluebird1 Can you explain in detail why I will not learn anything about wells and cisterns from @Alice_Linsley blogs as she does have a degree in archeology, or I think she does? She’s also a Catholic priestess—I think she is. So I was seeing if I could articulate from reading @Alice_Linsley 7 blogs. So can you show me from the @Alice_Linsley blogs why I won’t be able to learn about wells and cisterns? What type of archeologist do I need to go to who can teach me more about wells and cisterns?
Actually, I’ve never heard of cisterns 'until learning about carrying Joseph’s bones.
I would suggest that you find a dictionary, Riversea.
Did you read the article from scirp.org??
That is the one about R1a1 etc.
You asked about R1a haplogroup and the haplogroup of another group of people.
What did you learn from reading that?
Where does R1a1 haplogroup come from?
and so on…
As for the definitions of well and cistern…try the dictionary.
You might find one on a bookshelf at home or at your library. You might also google the word “well”…as I see that you have googled “cistern.”
From what I can see of your wikipedia.org contribution on the subject of cisterns, then you have found a good definition.
As for Alice L…she is a poster on this site. If she was trying to describe wells and cisterns–and you could not understand, then you should ask her to explain better.
There’s no such thing.
Wow – there’s an article that needs some serious work!
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I’m reading the websites you suggested
For me to compare. I’ll put this all here and then compare it and ask questions in more posts below.
@St.Roymond you claim @Alice_Linsley not a catholic priestess, I found where @Alice_Linsley claims she’s a priestess
Alice C. Linsley said…
Andrew, I was an Episcopal priest for 18 years and would have been glad to have a fine women priest like Anne Kennedy as a collegue.
In the comment area of
So what is an Episcopal I will google search
Is Episcopal the same as Catholic?
So you’re Catholic? Yes, and no. The Episcopal Church is catholic in the sense that we maintain the ancient structure, like the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches do. While we uphold the continuity of tradition, the Episcopal Church is not part of the Roman Catholic Church.
So the answer to you @St.Roymond is yes, @Alice_Linsley catholic priestess
Good morning, Riversea…I could not help but note your interchange with St Roymond. If Miss Alice says she was a Catholic priestess, then St Roymond is correct in noting that the Catholic church does not have “priestesses.” Men are priests, women become nuns. Two different categories. The Episcopal church first began to allow women to serve in the priesthood sometime in the mid 1970s. I believe there was an initial small group of women priestesses in 1974 and then the Episcopal church formalized the idea a couple years later.
But this DOES MEAN that St Roymond is correct in noting that Ms Linsley could not have been a “Catholic priestess.” No such thing.
And if Alice Linsley said she was a Catholic priestess, then she was mistaken as to what denomination she was or is involved in. Her site does not say one way or the other.
Glad you are reading the scirp blurbs about Haplogroup R1A…be sure and answer the three questions I initially asked you to answer after reading that article…
Inasmuch as Haplogroup R1 goes back 50,000 to 70, 000 years before the present…and its offspring have travelled hither and non across the globe from southern Siberia to the British Isles and back again, etc —what you get is a “deep ancestry” lesson. In and out and in and out of various regions they went…interesting… I think Jesse James (the outlaw) was Haplogroup R1a…also Nikola Tesla, Anderson Cooper, Tom Hanks…maybe also a few kings of England…and me and probably many others on this site.
But we are talking about a specific man in the early second millennium BC/BCE who lived in Ur of the Chaldees. The Chaldees were in ancient Babylon. There are specifics to the word “Chaldees”, but that is the whole of it in terms of location. NO…there is no information in the Bible at all that supports any more to his ancestry than that. Everything else is speculation – fun, maybe, but irrelevant. Look up “speculation”…synonym: guessing, theorizing maybe based on nothing more than a theory. If you read the sites mentioned in other posts, it seems that the migrations from the Indus Valley (orf India) seem to all have been groups of people or just plain people moving EAST toward other EASTERN parts of Asia…they traded with the Mesopotamian region, but trading is not immigration. Traders just go home afterwards.
There is no support for an Out of India scenario…this has been stated previously and I have noted that I posed the question to people with backgrounds in this biblical or Near Eastern archaeology and got “crickets”.
The biblical text is opposed to the sort of multiple deities that other religions – like the ancient Egyptian religions cited–believed in. The “plagues” that preceded the biblical Exodus were all (ALL) judgments upon the various gods of Egypt…including Horus. This is a whole other topic. And also the many deities of Hinduism would fit into the category. The God of the Bible is “not” polytheistic or tolerant of it. Other stories of other sorts of gods in other cultures? …interesting but not related…and these are the sorts of beliefs that the God of the Bible commanded His people (long ago) to dispose of–physically as well as emotionally.
Enjoy the reading and — I would say — start reading the Bible itself.
OK…I see that Biologos has put a “last visit” marker up —probably several times. It’s worth stopping here…for one thing, many of us have “lives” elsewhere and the day is new.
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@bluebird1 you were saying there’s a last call in this thread, where, I don’t see it. I wasn’t finished at this.
Is that correct 15,600 BC to your Question: what year, in BC/BCE terms, is “20,000 ybp
To your 3 questions and or… I did one of them., I feel so rushed. Due to last call.
Question: where does R1a1 haplogroup come from?
Question: what year, in BC/BCE terms, is “20,000 ybp”
Question: how many years between 20,000 ybp and the presumed lifetime of Abraham?
Is that correct 15,600 BC to your Question: what year, in BC/BCE terms, is “20,000 ybp
Here’s the math
lets see, 20,000 is 2,400 (2,000) math
bc is before 2,000
2,000 makes zero so 2400 is 2400 above zero, now bc is before 2,000
so put 20,00 before the zero that is actually 2,000 and oh 20,000 minus 4400 os the caculater came up with -15,600 so 15,600 bc, is that correct.
Is that correct 15,600 BC
It was nice having a conversation with you @bluebird1 I do learn from you and I understand your busy. I did learn a few things as well. I was seeing if I could communicate from reading a blog - I did make some errors however I’ll learn from those errors
The last visit marker just shows where you were the last time you visited. It has nothing to do with closing the discussion. Just a bookmark.
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- She’s not Catholic.
- She doesn’t say she’s a priestess.
The thing is, she never says she’s a priestess of any sort.
Crickets didn’t come out of India either. 
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