Hindu calendar also adds a month every few years. Months are 30 days.
“Judaism,” like any other global religion that has been around for millenia, represents a spectrum of beliefs and practices, some of which have evolved over time or varied greatly depending on the place and circumstances. And any time you are talking about “culture” you are talking about tendencies and corporate generalizations that are going to apply in greater and lesser degrees depending on the individual and their social location. “Judaism” is not an individual with a mind that can accept or reject beliefs, it’s a construct, and it can entail different concepts depending on the context.
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What time period would this be? I ask because there were cultures that referred to a sheet of papyrus as a “leaf”.
Not really. You know the game “telephone” that critics refer to as a way to ridicule oral transmission of material? Here’s how you would have to change the game in order to make it actually resemble oral tradition:
- put the original message in a memorable form, including a structure (e.g. the ‘days’ in Genesis 1)
- recite that message enough times that you can repeat it flawlessly starting with any random section of the message
- gather a half dozen people who are interested in being able to tell others the message
- recite the message for those people, one bit at a time, until they know all the bits and can themselves recite the message as flawlessly as you can; have them do so a thousand times without error
- be available for those who hear the message later so they can ask you if they were told it correctly
- repeat as needed
Initial recording of stories in writing were for the purpose of having a check on how the story was told; they were reinforcement for an already rigorous system.
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@St.Roymond
@bharatjj your thoughts papyrus as a “leaf” to write on, when what era, who?
From video @Terry_Sampson shared, I’ll show time and please scroll down below video to read more.
How Old is Written Sanskrit?
10:30 an unknown script that didn’t survive
10:32 perhaps because it was mostly written on
10:35 perishable surfaces like leaves instead
10:38 of on stone third is that it might be a
10:41distant descendant of the Indus Valley
10:44 script the Indus Valley script dates
10:47 from around the same time as Egyptian
10:49 hieroglyphics and Sumerian cuneiform but
10:53 unfortunately unlike Egyptian and
10:56 Sumerian it has never been deciphered
10:59 the indus valley civilization flourished
11:02 around 2500 BCE but then it completely
11:07 disappeared and was replaced with vedic
11:10 civilization it’s likely that the Indus
Here’s video at about when explaining leaves
@Rob_Brewer shared
Jacob L.Wright writes, “… our oldest sources for Israel’s history Akkadian and Egyptian texts, rather than Hebrew ones…” because “Hebrew writing, which presupposes the invention of the alphabet, did not yet exist.”
“The Bible was born in the Iron Age, and if Hebrew writing was not invented until the late tenth or early ninth century, we can understand why Moses and David were not its earliest authors.”
Why the Bible Began: An Alternative History of Scripture and its Origins (pp. 66-67 + 71). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
@bharatjj have you heard about this: that the Bible was actually born, I thought the Bible was written? However about when? @Rob_Brewer thinks Iron era that’s Iron Age Beginning sometime after 1500 BCE
Born must mean the beginning of, as RA or EL began the writing of Torah, and Bible followed when?
@Rob_Brewer wrote oldest sources for Israel’s history Akkadian and Egyptian texts, rather than Hebrew ones
@bharatjj Did Akkadian and Egyptians had wells or Cisterns, was Israel of the land of KMT black soil or what kind of soil?
I looked up Dr. Jacob L. Wright
He’s a a professor of Hebrew Bible / Old Testament at Emory University.
He brings to his work first-hand acquaintance with archeological finds and primary sources from ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Greece
@bharatjj @Aceofspades25
Hunters how? What kind of soil? Black or Red or what? How come not farmed?
@Aceofspades25 wrote
I don’t believe Australian Aborigines farmed and I know for sure that the African San people remained hunter gatherers). After it was discovered in fertile valleys (like Mesopotamia, along the Nile and along the Indus valley)
Yes adam sinned, was cursed to toil, and that led to revolution.
was Genesis originally written in Hebrew? Someone define Horite Hebrews.
See below from biblicalanthropology.com/blogspot
The best evidence to date suggests that Abraham and his Hebrew ancestors spoke the languages of the peoples among whom they lived. Some of Abraham’s ancestors spoke early Nilo-Saharan languages, some of which are now extinct. Abraham and his immediate family would have spoken Ancient Akkadian, the oldest known Semitic language. This explains why Akkadian roots are found in the oldest layers of the Genesis material.
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The ancestry of Seir the Horite is not specified. Some say Seir lived around the time of Terah, father of Abraham. He is also said to be a descendant of Hor who is supposed to have lived around the time of Reu and was a descendant of Hivi, son of Canaan son of Ham.
Found the above on the internet…
Connecting an ancient name like “the Horites” is probably pretty tough stuff. The Bible says “In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated…[list of names here]…and the Horites in the hill country of Seir.” That is Genesis 14:6] Commentators cite a passage in Deuteronomy 2 to assert that Seir was located in the region “between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Akaba, before the Edomites settled there” (see Word Biblical Commentary
and also see Westermann and his commentary for same )… Another source said “the geographical exactness …of the route followed by the invaders…is striking. Equally striking is that the place names [in Gen 14:6] which are indentifiable are all to be found along the central mountain range of the Transjordan … the ones that military expeditions followed between Syria in the north and the Dead Sea in the south” (NICOT on the book of Genesis chapters 1–17)
The most that can be said is that the writer of that chapter in Genesis was pretty sure about where the Horites lived. Horites were among the groups resisting Mesopotamian control of their region…
In Deuteronomy 2 it says “your brothers the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir. They will be afraind of you…I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own.” verses 4 and 5 and then see verse 8 which repeats the above information.
The earliest examples of Paleo-Hebrew go back to about the 10th century BCE… which is distant enough but too late for Abraham. I cited info on that one elsewhere here.
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Bluebird. I have read FIVE VIEWS OF THE EXODUS at your suggestion. It is good but focussed on Egypt. What would be a good text that gives overview including the route from Mitsrayim to Israel?
Hmmm…Bharatjj…I thought the subject here was “Does Genesis reflect the beliefs of the Horite Hebrews , Abraham’s people? Does Judaism actually reject those beliefs?”
Since I am not Jewish, I cannot answer that final question or even address it. The topic seems to be Horites – and the names of admittedly obscure groups that occur early on in the biblical text (if nowhere else) and then vanish. They do intrigue people.
The biblical text mentions a people-group called the Horites and connects them with Seir. The texts I cited discuss that claim and locate Seir in a place between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Akaba. The archaeologist Donald Redford, in his book, also supports this connection in some of his writings. That is the perspective that can be found…not much else. As for Five Views of the Exodus — not the same subject – of course it focuses on Egyypt. That is the place in which the descendants of Jacob were largely living at the time that the Exodus occurred. After all, there is plenty of evidence pointing in that direction. And I understand that “mitzrayim” in Hebrew or Aramaic means Egypt…so —same difference.
You came on this site to promote your ideas, and this is fine. But you have to give references and some support for them.
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I’ve noticed this: how God would tell someone how others will see that person, and how suddenly it’s communicated.
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Abraham was told by God how others would see him.
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Esau was told by God how others would see him.
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And how many others were told by God how people would see them?
How did they communicate this to others, or what was it that God did to that person that caused others to think this of them? What is that called?
If my question doesn’t make sense, let’s find out how I can ask it.
Terah left Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the
land of Canaan.
Ghuram? Canaan? Where?
Terah died at Haran, and Abraham continued the journey to Ai in the land of Canaan. Was Haran located at Nohar, which lies on the way from
Anupgarh to Ghuram?
Did Abraham carry Terah’s bones there, because later they’d carried Joseph’s bones to where and why?
Jacob wrestles with God, how come, and Israel wrestles with God, how come? Jacob’s name changed to Israel; how come they don’t call this country land “Jacob”? How did that name change from Jacob to Israel, yet both names mean wrestle with God? How much information from Genesis helps with this situation about wrestling with God? Can @Alice_Linsley and @bluebird1 and @bharatjj and @Benjamin87 help me with this please
Riversea…Read Genesis 12:1…Abram left his country, including his people “and your father’s household” to go to another land. Terah died in Haran (Gen 11: 32) Ur was “of the Chaldeans” . …
…and not Ghuram…THAT is a village in India. I am aware of some individual’s theory about ancient Jews coming from India. I have raised this question at a couple archaeological seminars I have attended…just in case there is a perspective I do not know about. I asked other questions at these seminars and they were answered, but when I asked about an Indian connection I heard crickets chirping…When I try Indian sites I see summaries of people migrating from the Indus Valley…but they inevitably were heading east (not west) to Southeast Asia or the like…This did not mean there were no trade routes going both directions. Of course there were. The ancient Sumerians got stuff in trade that is known to have come from regions around Kandahar, etc. But trade is trade…it is not migration. The ancestors of Abraham may have come from somewhere else —but then we get into the “Out of Africa” stuff which is so primordial that it does not fit current topic. So scratch that idea off your list.
For a non-sectarian definition of the location of Canaan, see below…
Canaan was an ancient region in the eastern Mediterranean, mentioned in various historical texts, including the Bible. It covered a broad area in what is now modern-day Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and parts of Jordan.
OK…beyond the above quote from a Univ of Penn internet site…I can say that the general location of ancient Canaan is well known. The Canaanites were referenced (it is believed) in the Amarna letters and spoke a West Semitic language…not Indian…West Semitic… Egyptian-style scarabs discovered in the Levant have helped scholars re-create Canaanite history Note the phrase “Egyptian style.” This is important. Egypt was the superpower in the region. Its history has its ups and downs. During the early second millennium many civilizations had bad moments. Some disappeared. Egypt obviously did not, but new people groups came into the region —the Sea Peoples and more…old empires dissolved or shrank a bit …some only temporarily, others permanently. Read Eric Cline’s 1177 BC. The Canannites were displaced by the Hebrews eventually – so that should tell you the region in which the Canaanites lived. Ancient Jericho was Canaanite…Ugarit (now called Ras Shamra in modern Syria) was also Canaanite.
Haran and Ur were centers of moon worship and there were major trade routes in the region. This probably explains why the family went from one community to the other. They just loved those big-city lights!! And Haran was in what is now southeastern Turkey. …not the other sites you mentioned.
The text does not say anything about Abram taking his father’s bones with him. Terah died in Haran, that is it. The idea of taking bones to some place —that seems to have applied essentially to Joseph’s bones since he wanted to be permanently laid to rest in the land (Canaan now Israel) promised by God to his descendants.
Here’s a passage guaranteed to start a battle: “On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, 'To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to …” OK read Genesis 15: 18-20. And the Canaanites are mentioned among the list of peoples whose land would be given to Abram’s descendants. As I said…
Your last paragraph about wrestling with God is interesting. It also hardly fits with the earlier Out of Africa stuff …or Our of Ur… Why did Jacob wrestle with God? Better to ask why the Creator of the Universe-- which is WHO the God of Israel is believed to have been – would trouble Himself with wrestling with one of His creatures? Jacob was a cheat and a deceiver and many bad things. To be honest, so was his father-in-law…and a few women in that family line as well…Abraham also had his moments… This is all another story, of course, or set of stories. The moral here is: God does not pick perfect people because …drum roll, please…no such creature exists. Also, God is a God Who keeps His promises. To everyone…and in this case, also to Abraham. .As for the name Israel, it literally means “God fights.” I don’t know that the name “Jacob” necessarily means “wrestle with God” but it was an old name and well-known among Canaanite peoples of those days…see the word “Canaanite” here…the name is recorded in the temple of Karnak…not some place in India!! Jacob was in competition with his brother and that may be the whole of it. Could be more , but he (Jacob) was specifically re-named because of his struggle (wrestling match) with God. “Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome” (Gen 32:28). And then, of course, Jacob asked for the “man’s” name —and got an enigmatic response. So he "called the place Peniel, saying “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” (verse 30)…the very next chapter mentions the site of Succoth which is just east of the Jordan River…
And the amount of information in Genesis that helps with the whole concept of wrestling with God —or should it be God wrestling with humankind – is incidental. The book of Genesis covers a lot of territory…And God has been wrestling with humankind ever since, in some way or other. Big theological concept there…could go on forever.
But I won’t. Thanks for the question, Riversea…and this is all I have to say on the subject
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Great post above…i have only a single thing to add
God promised thst he would make abraham a great nation in Genesis 12
2I will make you into a great nation,
As you will note, i get riled up when attempts are made at discrediting biblical inerrancy and historicity…i have added the following
Evidence we have biblically to the God of the hebrews in the east, outside of Abrahams family, may be via the likes of Melchizzadek and of course the 3 maggi from the east (likely babylon or persia) who visited Christ in the 2 years after his birth and not in a stable as was illustrated by Bilogos in one of their articles. Lets not forget, the maggi almost certainly were converted as a result of earlier Jewish captivity in those nations. I think most likely the idea went east with the apostles when they were given the charge to take the gospel to the gentiles after the time of Christ in the first century.
The bible i think is about Abrahams family journey…the nation of israel. Im.sure God had other converts, however these were not part of His special people.
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Thanks Adam…I am trying basically to stick with one or two points…hard to do… Someone appears to be influenced by some Indian connection theory that has no basis in biblical history or secular history, at least from ancient times…not going down the rabbit hole here… Appreciate your comment
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No, Haran was located at Haran, which is in the north of the Tigris-Euphrates valley region.
Genesis has nothing to do with anything in India; anyone claiming it does is just deeply ignorant of the text.
Because his name was changed to Israel.
“Jacob” doesn’t mean “wrestle with God”, it means “to follow” or “to supplant”, and was given because he was born after his brother.
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At that point Jacob was a fearful man who couldn’t decide what he really should do and so was maneuvering to try to somehow come out ahead in the coming encounter with his brother. Oddly enough, he had encountered angels earlier yet nothing is said whether they had a message for him or if he even spoke with them. It could be supposed that this silence indicates he was supposed to talk with them but didn’t due to being tangled in his thoughts out of fear.
So my guess is that God, in the form of an angel (according to Hosea) appearing as a man, tackled a sleepless Jacob to get him to put things back in focus, aiming to get him to remember the promises God had given and trust those instead of fearing and scheming.
The problem is in the word .zera. used for descendants of abraham. It means both biological as well as moral descendants.
Thanks for the additional comments, St Roymond…I should have taken the time to point out to Riversea that the text in Genesis 12 does not really have Abraham going “to Ai”. The travelogue in verse 8 has him “pitching his tent” in a region with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east…all before heading to the Negev and then, due to famine, going “down to Egypt” in verse 10. Key point: Egypt was where people often sought refuge when there was hardship.
And with Jacob in chapter 32…some commentators say that by telling “the man” in 32:27 that his name was Jacob, he was admitting his sins. That was why “the man” gave Jacob the new name of Israel. It’s interesting and, while much has been said about the event in commentaries, there was probably also a lot more to that particular encounter than was ever recorded.
Good comments.
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