Does Cell-Building Require Intelligence?


(Thomas W. Rogers) #61

Thanks Randy. I appreciate your input.
Tom


(Mark D.) #62

Personally I appreciate the individual creativity and care God takes in creating each snowflake. Oh, and the chocolate mint left on my bed when I stay at a hotel … though I can’t be sure that was God.


(Thomas W. Rogers) #63

Hi Randy:
You are right, we certainly can give God the glory for providing His creation for us, regardless of how He made and continues to make life happen.
As “only a family doc”, may I say this is one of the most honorable, practical, and essential careers on the planet. (My wife was the “Nurse in Charge” of the operating theaters in a large hospital in our area for many years).
Apparently the American medical practitioners comprise the largest number of Darwin dissenters as a career group according to a survey done by the New York Times about 20 years ago.
Blessings to you and yours, Randy.
Tom


(Randy) #64

Mr Rogers,

Thank you for your kind note. I am glad your wife was able to serve people as she has. I do like the healthcare field. However, I am more and more convinced that every work can be done to the glory of God, with just as much service to Him if we black shoes or peel potatoes or are pastors! (as in Eric Liddell and Chariots of Fire, “ye can peel a spud to the glory of God”! Thus, whatever your job was, I am sure it was just as valuable. What’s more, if we don’t start that way out, we all can cause more damage, no matter what our job is. @jasonbourne4 leads a Bible study at his practice on a weekly basis as he’s written elsewhere here, and one of my partners does, too (I don’t make it as I try to drive my children in to school every morning).

May I ask what your country of origin is, and what led you to Christ?

Regarding Darwin and evolution, I agree that we can glorify God however we are made. Francis Collins, the one who started this website, is an evolutionist and wanted folks of both Christian and atheist persuasions to see that faith and evolutionary science can be complementary, not mutually exclusive. I’m grateful for the godly folks here who have taught me a lot --and also for those who don’t have faith. We are all learning about God’s world.
Blessings.

Randy


(Chris Falter) #65

Consider the teaching of the apostle Paul:

Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding. 2 Corinthians 10: 12

As for the actual topic, there is no such thing as a field of endeavor that does not in some way manifest God’s goodness, creativity, and providence.

But very few people, regardless of their zeal and devotion to Christ, talk about “God’s carpentry,” “God’s auto mechanics,” or “God’s meteorology.” A Christian who studies carpentry studies the same thing as a Muslim, Jew, or atheist student of carpentry, right? Christians who study auto mechanics or meteorology study the same things that atheists, Hindus and Buddhists study on the topics of auto mechanics and meteorology. God’s world belongs to everyone.

It is the same with biology. It is one more aspect of the wonderful world that God has created and sustains. No aspect of that world ultimately stands apart from His love and providence. But we talk about, study, and engineer in that world in a collaborative way that we can share with everyone, because in the present age God has given this world to everyone created in His image.

Does that make sense?

Blessings,
Chris


#66

Sorry, you aren’t going to instruct me. I find your chutzpah and patronizing mind-boggling. But not surprising.


(Thomas W. Rogers) #67

A lot of this makes sense, Chris.
Re: the actual topic, do you think that building our cells requires intelligence?


(Thomas W. Rogers) #68

My country of origin is Canada. I was introduced to Jesus through a friend who had been through similar difficulties, was invited to a Billy Graham crusade, was saved, went to a men’s Bible study, invited me, and I made a commitment through the study leader in his Subaru on the I5 on the way to a retreat.
It would be interesting to here your story as well Randy.
Tom


(Thomas W. Rogers) #69

Your call, Beaglelady.


(Randy) #70

@GodsBiology Mr Rogers, Thank you for your note. It is good to have you on the forum for discussion. I, too, have been grateful for men’s Bible studies. I would like to get back into one again.

I have relatives in Canada too–currently in Pincher Creek and Edmonton (or Calgary?), Alberta;, though my brother-in-law also has some in BC. I live in Michigan, currently, though my parents were missionaries with SIM to Niger. I was born in Nigeria (which fact throws some people for a loop when they read my resume for job and school applications), though my parents are from West Michigan. I am grateful for their godly upbringing, which helped me envision God’s love through Jesus better as they were full of grace to us. I was saved about 5 years of age, but I do believe that God continues to save our earthly lives on a daily basis too by teaching us (as we are willing to learn) about Him and how to emulate His son–so there is both a Calvinist and an Arminian element there!

In Africa, we were surrounded by about 95% Muslim people, but they were also very gracious, country people.
I would like to go back some day, but am not sure that will work out. It’s up to God.

God bless.


#71

Does an oxygen molecule count hydrogen atoms to make sure it has two hydrogen atoms attached to it? No. You seem to be under the wrong impression that chemicals have to count.


#72

It is discussed exhaustively in the field of biochemistry, as I have already shown you. It is also exhaustively discussed in molecular biology. It is quite stunning that after 31 years of research you are unaware of the vast amount of information on this topic.


#73

That is all done by “dumb” molecules. DNA replication, RNA transcription, protein translation, and metabolism are all well understood at the atomic level. From everything we have seen, they proceed through natural processes bound by natural laws like thermodynamics. It is no different than oxygen combining with hydrogen or vinegar and baking soda creating bubbles of CO2.


(Thomas W. Rogers) #74

Example just in DNA bases:
Adenine C5H5N5
Guanine C5H5N5O1
Cytosine C4H5N3O1
Thymine C5H6N2O2

Would you admit that there needs to be some careful selection, counting, and assembly of the right numbers of the right atoms here.


(Steve Schaffner) #75

No. There is no reason at all to think intelligence is required.


(Roger A. Sawtelle) #76

I am glad that we can call the structure of life intelligent, because it verifies that the structure of the universe is rational. Also it explains why humans are rational, because evolution as created by God rewards and encourages intelligence or rationality.


#77

No. It happens spontaneously without anyone counting or selecting. I already showed you the first step of purine de novo biosynthesis. Perhaps you could go back to that post and explain why there would need to be an intelligence counting atoms and guiding atoms together.


#78

Folks, we’ve been here before. it started in June 2016 with this thread. As a matter of fact, this is the third round. There has been plenty of time to peek inside an introductiory chemistry or biology textbook.


(Thomas W. Rogers) #79

Dream on, T_ . I’m “shaking the dust off my feet” and moving on.


#80

You can lead a horse to water . . .