What about 1260 BC, which is a better fit for the Exodus?
From the text, it took more like 200 years. It takes some time to build villages.
Archaeology can’t tell us one way or another. There was something there c.1280-1220 BC, but all we have surviving are a few tombs.
On all of the comments about the deaths being problematic theologically, my response is:
Is a person carrying out a death sentence on someone who has been justly convicted guilty of something?
I was using most as an umbrella term for large swathes of the OT. I am not convinced any of the Biblical exodus is historical. Moses is certainly highly suspect and nothing in the account as written seems to have any historical corroboration and everything is against it.
An unjust law is no law at all. Can babies, toddlers, unborn children, be justly convicted of anything and then be put to death?
What was the crime of these children? How can an embryo be guilty of anything? Is it a case of nits make lice?
The Nazis thought like this. Before murdering Jews, Roma, etc. they turned against their own citizens, murdering people with any mental disability or any other “defect.” They started with murdering any defective child up to about 2-3 years old by lethal injection. They expanded this program to all ages and used gas to kill them–lethal injection was too slow.
The Exodus never happened, so Biblical chronology suffices.
Any estimates for population in Ancient Egypt are likely to come with with large error bars and are as likely to fluctuate with what area Ancient Egypt covered as well, but, restricting to traditional Egypt (delta up to the first cataract [Aswan]) numbers seem to range from 2 to 3 million in the New Kingdom (around 1550 to 1077 BCE). BTW 1260 BCE would be right smack in the middle of Ramasses II’s reign and a time where he controlled the Levant including what was to become Israel and Judah at least as far as Byblos. At most you would get a very small exodus (a handful of families) not seriously pursued then.
I am not arguing to support genocide, far from it, and judging scripture is one thing, but the attitude willing to judge God is another.
We dare not presume what justice for lèse-majesté, “to do wrong to majesty”, might entail (one might expect some serious repercussions if they called a queen a whore to her face). That’s something that Job did not do amidst his many sufferings:
Let’s just say, “We were only following orders”
If that was an unspecific reply to me, then you did not understand what I said and/or taking it out of context.
Without definite evidence there is no support for the Exodus. The problem for Biblical passages like this is exactly that, almost no evidence or none. This of-course does not prove that something didn’t happen or is based on something that may have happened (although in a very different way that described). But the flip side is also true, without evidence over time from multiple sources with a reasonable or more than a reasonable amount of evidence, makes the existence of something very unlikely.
This kind of theology makes god pretty monstrous. Fortunately, there seems like there is no good evidence for it - so it never happened. Unless one is committed to certain assumptions about what the meaning of Biblical texts must be, I suggest taking a step back and seeing the text as meaning something else and that this is probably a blessing for Christians.
And the account says they were pursued, albeit unsuccessfully. Egypt’s lost control over Judea completely very soon after Ramesses II’s death, given the raids by his son Merenptah.
It wasn’t addressed to you
Exactly! Thank you.
If we are talking about an exodus in the middle of Ramasses II’s reign, if they were hanging around the Sinai or Palestine and were wanted by Ramasses, they would have been found. Ramasses also ruled until about 1213 BCE some 47 years after the exodus date wanted. Also many scholars characterize Merenptah’s campaign not as raids but rather a suppression of an uprising. Egyptian control may have lasted for another 60 or so years.
It had no address, that’s why I wondered.
I don’t think we have enough evidence to really tell, but perhaps losing a bunch of chariots convinced him to give up on chasing them.
Can anyone tell me more about the Mesha Stele? I found it very interesting–Onscript has a podcast I’m going to listen to, as well. I’m not sure how much it relates to this question.
Per Wikipedia:
The Mesha Stele , also known as the Moabite Stone , is a stele dated around 840 BCE containing a significant Canaanite inscription in the name of King Mesha of Moab (a kingdom located in modern Jordan). Mesha tells how Chemosh, the god of Moab, had been angry with his people and had allowed them to be subjugated to Israel, but at length, Chemosh returned and assisted Mesha to throw off the yoke of Israel and restore the lands of Moab. Mesha describes his many building projects.[1] It is written in a variant of the Phoenician alphabet, closely related to the Paleo-Hebrew script.[2][3]
The Mesha Stele – Mary Buck and Chris McKinny | OnScript
Thanks.
A Google Scholar search with Mesha Stele returns many papers discussing the stele. Looks like the translation is being revised. Finkelstein has a recent paper you can read here and he doesn’t believe line 31 refers to the House of David.
The tomb of Khnumhotep II was decorated with one part depicting pastoral nomadic Semites entering Egypt from Canaan with their livestock during the reign of Pharoah Senusret II. Then we have scarab seals that name important people. These are attached to rings where you imprint the name on clay or wax. 27 of these bear the name Yaqob (Jacob) and the element El. Then there is the golden necklace discovered in the Saqqara tomb of Horemheb was an Egyptian award for service.
The practice goes back to 1600BC we see this in Gen 41:42. Papyrus Brooklyn dated 17th C.BC found in Thebes Egypt uses the words slaves, servants, Hebrews, joseph, shiphrah. It has a list of 95 servants called Asiatic coming from Canaan. Their foreign names were given Egyptian names - 30 are identified as Semitic and 9 have specific Hebrew names.
The list points to Hebrews living in Egypt. prior to the Exodus. Ex 1:15. Tomb of Rekmire 1450BC in the valley of the Nobles has tomb murals of slaves, making bricks using mud and straw. Then the word Aamu or Asiatic always pointed to slaves. Ex 1:11; 2:11 5:4-19.
The Egyptian text called the Louvre Leather roll describes what is recorded in Exodusbrick quotas. Leningrad Papyrus 1116A 18th Dynasty probably Pharoah Thutmose III specifies immigrants were subject to compulsory labor after the expulsion of the Hyksos.
There is a whole section on Pharoah hardening his heart from an Egyptian perspective regarding Ammit the demon goddess - Egyptian theology says the physical heart is made heavy by sin. So the Bible reflects that idea.
The plagues - ancient Egyptian text written by Ipuwer talks of Admonitions and Egyptian Sage - a lament to Sun god Ra natural order then Egypt disrupted by death destruction and plagues. (Some dispute these writings time)
Pharoah and the Exodus - Elephantine Stele of Amenhotep II. This guy was arrogant the military declined under him. The bloke only had two campaigns 1448BC and 1444BC, during his reign, the second being a raid after the Exodus as recorded on the stele. Amenhotep II claims he brought back 101,128 captives to be slaves. But the same military campaigns range up to 5,903. Most believe the bloke exaggerated. This happened after the exodus to replace those who left under Moses…and it appears to be propaganda making Amenhotep II had recovered all the slaves lost die to the exodus.
The Sphinx Dream Stele contains the words plagues, Pharoah Thutmose IV, firstborn deaths. His older brother Amenhotep was the heir but disappeared and died.
Finally, two hieroglyphic inscriptions mentioning “the land of the nomads of YHWH” are on the wall of two New Kingdom Egyptian temples and a temple pillar in Sudan.
I have not included a whole group of details and links, but you get the idea.
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