Does A Proper Understanding Of The Principles of Philosophy And Logic Point One To Monotheism And The Christian God?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Wot?! You mean get a life?

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That hasn’t been my experience. The majority of Christians I have talked to here at BioLogos cite personal experience as an important foundation of their belief. In as much as theology is a branch of philosophy, I guess people are citing philosophy, but the testimonies I have heard here are much more focused on experience than a given branch of philosophy.

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Aye, there must be an intense spectrum, with absorption and emission lines, from the ultimate, minimal, deist ground of eternal, infinite being, fully accommodating all science and reason, with faith, to YEC. In between there are those here that do neither!

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Personal perceptions and experiences are important but should individual’s argue that their personal subjective experiences and perceptions are evidence of a universal truth, such as the universal truth claim that the supernatural operates in our modern world?

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They can certainly argue that it is sufficient evidence for them. Obviously, something that can’t be independently verified or experienced may not be compelling to others.

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  • “Should”? LOL!
  • You have a problem and you want crazy Christians to solve your problem?

What, if anything is wrong with this picture:

  • “My personal experience used to feel like evidence. Now I no longer trust that, so how can anyone else claim personal experience as evidence of anything universal—especially about the supernatural?”
  • “Shouldn’t you Christians admit your subjective stuff doesn’t count as real evidence of universal truth?”

Personal perceptions are never the only reason I believe anything important, but they’re never irrelevant either. I don’t think, “I once felt peaceful, therefore everyone must accept that the supernatural operates.” I think, “My experience of God lives inside a much bigger web of reasons — historical, philosophical, communal — and together they make it reasonable for me to say: this isn’t just ‘in my head.’ You don’t have to accept it, but you also don’t get to pretend all subjective experience is automatically meaningless.”

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We are still trying to catagorise evidence, or proof, or even reason. Most if not all the experiences of Christians is unrepeatable, and unverifiable. For the individual that is not a problem, thy do not need verification for what they know or have experienced, but in terms of transference to others? You are relying on belief in the person as much as the details. That sort of trust is hard to generate. Unless you are a Vulcan, perhaps, but then, their understanding of logic does not always commute either.

Richard

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I assume ya’ll already got one. Just go live it. It ain’t here.

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Buddhists do not believe Buddha is God.

Hindus do not believe Brahma is God.

Muslims do not believe Muhammad is God.

Philosophers don’t have any answers but just questions. They contemplate their existence.

Atheists become philosophers because they contemplate their existence. They have one thing right and that is that God does not exist – but that is because all things that do exist are created by and held together by God. The only way for you, and everything else around you to exist is that there is a God.

Jews believe in the same God as Christians but just do not believe that Jesus is that God – but Jesus truly is God in the flesh, who died for the sins of the world. He is the image of the invisible God.

In conclusion, there is only one God and that is the Christian God.

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What evidence do you have that the Christian God is the Creator God?

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  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

  • John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

  • Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

  • Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says:…
    10 “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

  • Psa 102:24b Your years are throughout all generations.
    25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

  • Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
    To receive glory and honor and power;
    For You created all things,
    And by Your will they exist and were created.”

  • Isa 48:12b I am He, I am the First,
    I am also the Last.
    13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
    And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
    When I call to them,
    They stand up together.

  • Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Now let look at the actual creation account. While it was written thousands of years ago, it lines up almost perfectly with cosmology and the common decent of all life in evolution theory, discovered in just the last few hundred years:

The Creation Days – A Day Age Concordance
Common Decent of All Life through the Patriarchs – Skipped Generations of Genesis - #31 by graft2vine
Remapped Flat Earth Imagery – Why Young Earth Creationism and Flat Earth Theory are false - #19 by graft2vine
The Flood of Noah – Another Examination of the Flood - #14 by graft2vine

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Again, I do not question the existence of a Creator God. There is good evidence he (she/they/it) does exist or at least did at one time, but since scientists have not reached a consensus on the origin of the universe I choose to remain neutral on this question.

I want to obey the rules of this forum so I am going to throw this out and let the moderators tell me if it is off limits: May I question the identity of the Creator in this forum or must I accept as fact that the Creator is the Christian God?

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I don’t see why not. Has any other creator given an account of creation that lines up with science? I believe God does in Genesis if you take a look at what I present in the links to previous discussions.

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I don’t see how you can possibly believe that the Christian creation account lines up with science. There are three creation accounts in the Bible:

AI: The three main creation accounts in the Bible are the Priestly account (Genesis 1:1–2:4a), the Yahwist account (Genesis 2:4b–3:24), and the Chaoskampf account found in certain Psalms and Job. The Genesis 1 and 2 accounts describe creation in a different order and with different emphasis, while the Psalms and Job present a third, older theme of a deity battling primordial chaos to create the world.

The interpretation of these three creation accounts has been repeatedly altered to conform to new scientific discoveries. The Christian creation accounts only line up with science when you apply a very liberal interpretation to these ancient texts.

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You don’t. What human minds can fairly test is far more limited than being able to prove God, either for or against. It isn’t just philosophy which is limited. Science is as well. Neither can decide the status of God.

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37

As long as you decide that God created, the actual name or identity is less important.
This business of Christian God, or Hindu God, or (Name placement) God is unhelpful at best. The belief is that God relates to us individually. So God goes by whatever identity the individual chooses. What the person next to you , or millions of miles away chooses is of no concern. I was brought up with the Christian view of God and it still works for me, Some people have famously switched one way or the other between faiths and identities.
God is God. In Exodus He tried to steer away from a specific name, preferring to be known by His actions or who He has associated with.
The point here is to steer away from any sort of dogmatism or possession of God. God is. You either believe that or not. Everything else is padding, culture and theology.

Richard

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Must I believe that the Creator is a supernatural being to comment here?

I believe in Darwinian evolution, so it baffles my mind that a god with unlimited supernatural powers would use such a slow, cumbersome, and brutal method (natural selection) to create anything. I have my bets on a mortal of some sort as our creator. Maybe a mad scientist in another universe whose experiment went BANG and billions of years later, here we are!

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We’re not here to tell you what to believe, and there’s nothing wrong with you mentioning your own beliefs here. Since most people here believe in the Christian God, we want them to be able to share those common beliefs without the basics constantly being called into question.

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There are Atheists here.

That is why I do not accept the scientific view of evolution. I agree about Natural Selection. Perhaps God has done things differently from what Science sees or guesses?

As for slow but sure, why not? Have you ever tried to make a curry from scratch? It can take several hours to slowly fuse the flavours together. There is no need to rush if you are not bound by time.

I will not take your alternative suggestions seriously.

The underlying question is whether what we have could have just happened (by chance) or whether there was some design and/or purpose. Most religious people think that there had to be some intelligent oversight. That results in some sort of omnipotent and eternal being. Perhaps the Q continuum?

:winking_face_with_tongue:

Richard

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The evidence to me suggests:

-The orderliness of the universe indicates to me that there is or at least was a creator with a brilliant mind.

-The massive, daily suffering in the world indicates to me that our creator is either dead, disabled, disinterested, or sadistic

-The massive evidence for Darwinian evolution indicates to me that our creator was likely not an all-powerful supernatural being (god). Natural selection is just too messy a process for a perfect being to have initiated.

That results in some sort of omnipotent and eternal being.

Why couldn’t a brilliant (mortal) scientist in another universe that was more advanced billions of years ago than we are today be our creator?