The tag for this post is “biblical-interpretation.”
And one of their examples of what’s unacceptable is interpretation of revelation.
It’s true you included the word “scientifically.” We should all remember that. I think a bar is technically a restaurant if it sells peanuts. Maybe add a science tag just to be safe.
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I’m personally curious as to how Mitchell understands this story as an event that happened that’s not out of line with science. But I doubt most posts about science and faith are going to be these purely mechanical posts.
If you’re weightless, levitating, walking gets you nowhere. Surface tension strong enough to support a man would have to be a million times stronger, as would viscosity to provide friction. Just materialize ground under every step. Make the water rheopectic. Add a lot of custard powder to it.
Or just locally change the appropriate universal constant(s).
For me what I am asking is what are the opinions people have in here ranging from naturalistic to supernatural. Such as with the Red Sea. Some believe the events were real and have scientific responses to it concerning wind and so on. Some believe it’s purely supernatural. But to stay out of echo chambers it’s helpful to pose questions to a wide range of beliefs. Just because Jesus rose from the dead does not necessarily mean I must take every story at face value. Someone up towards the beginning brought up genre and so on.
How do you think I’ve developed there? I’m not super familiar with that area. Would ice bridges be common there?
A quick google search , if true, mentioned the coldest temp in Israel , at least in the last century or so was 34°f and so perhaps it could have dropped below that to freezing temps. But then, for enough ice to develop to be able to walk on it would require that temperature for a decent amount of time. But if it was a freak cold storm, that would also explain why the apostles were freaked out. If you’re not expecting an ice bridge, and one was there and Jesus was simply guided to it and walking that way then it’s plausible they would be equally freaked out.
It’s like in the Gulf of Mexico. If a mile out in the gulf a once chunk developed you could walk on, and I was kayaking and seen someone walking on it, I would presume something supernatural happening when it was just extremely abnormal but natural nonetheless.
Would you mind quoting some modern scholars who disagree with my claims regarding visions vs real events as illustrated?
i provided you with 3 very good examples from the text that illustrate my point…these are not “half-quotes”. I am more than happy to post the entire narratives or visions if that is what is required to satisfy a claim of “half-quotes”. The reason why the entire passages were not quoted should be blunty obvious to you…this is a forum, not a library! If you want to entire quote, then you should do as the Bereans did…go and read it for yourself! I can assure you that if i were to add more to the above-quoted passages, it only strengthens my argument!
Theologically, unless you understand the concept of type and antitype when it comes to biblical symbolism, you cannot possibly understand why literal ancient history is used throughout the bible to teach us. This does not mean that these narratives are fiction, it simply means that God uses real events as an example…as i said in my last post (and as I am a trained teacher i suppose i should know), this technique is regularly used throughout education and training today. For example:
As i said, with even just a little theological knowledge and study, its easy to pick the difference between symbolism, allegories, literal events, etc. The bible is so consistent in this way and particularly considering related passages in other books of the bible are so plentiful… so we don’t really have problems in understanding where and when to make the distinction. Let face it, if scholars did not use a bit of theological common sense on these things, the trinity doctrine would never have passed the stink test at the council of Nicea in 325!
Perhaps i can add another illustration…and since you demand more than “half quotes”…let me fill your head with this to consider…
Is the following allegory or literal?
Mesha Stele (found 1868)
On 8 February 1870, George Grove of the Palestine Exploration Fund announced the find of the stele in a letter to The Times, attributing the discovery to Charles Warren. On 17 February 1870, the 24-year-old Clermont-Ganneau published the first detailed announcement of the stele in the Revue de l’Instruction Publique.[20] This was followed a month later by a note from Frederick Augustus Klein published in the Pall Mall Gazette, describing his discovery of the stele in August 1868:
… I afterwards ascertained that [Ganneau’s] assertion as to no European having, before me, seen the stone was perfectly true. … I am sorry to find that I was also the last European who had the privilege of seeing this monument of Hebrew antiquity in its perfect state of preservation.
What about the text on the Bassalt rock itself?
I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad,[27] king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt.
Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions. His son succeeded him, and he also said, I will oppress Moab. In my days he said, Let us go, and I will see my desire upon him and his house, and Israel said, I shall destroy it for ever. Now Omri took the land of Madeba, and occupied it in his day, and in the days of his son, forty years. And Chemosh had mercy on it in my time. And I built Baal-meon and made therein the ditch, and I built Kiriathaim.
And the men of Gad dwelled in the country of Ataroth from ancient times, and the king of Israel fortified Ataroth. I assaulted the wall and captured it, and killed all the warriors of the city for the well-pleasing of Chemosh and Moab, and I removed from it all the spoil, and offered it before Chemosh in Kirjath; and I placed therein the men of Siran, and the men of Mochrath. And Chemosh said to me, Go take Nebo against Israel, and I went in the night and I fought against it from the break of day till noon, and I took it: and I killed in all seven thousand men…women and maidens, for I devoted them to Ashtar-Chemosh; and I took from it the vessels of Jehovah, and offered them before Chemosh.
And the king of Israel fortified Jahaz, and occupied it, when he made war against me, and Chemosh drove him out before me, and I took from Moab two hundred men in all, and placed them in Jahaz, and took it to annex it to Dibon.
I built Karchah the wall of the forest, and the wall of the Hill. I have built its gates and I have built its towers. I have built the palace of the king, and I made the prisons for the criminals within the wall. And there were no wells in the interior of the wall in Karchah. And I said to all the people, ‘Make you every man a well in his house.’ And I dug the ditch for Karchah with the chosen men of Israel. I built Aroer, and I made the road across the Arnon. I built Beth-Bamoth for it was destroyed. I built Bezer for it was cut down by the armed men of Daybon, for all Daybon was now loyal; and I reigned from Bikran, which I added to my land. And I built Beth-Gamul, and Beth-Dibla
Does this mean you don’t believe optical illusions exist?
Or does it mean you don’t believe God created the world?
Or does it mean you don’t believe Jesus is God?
Are you claiming to have walked on water using a parlor trick?
If Jesus is God, and God created the world, and optical illusions exist then Jesus is a purveyor of optical illusions. Simple logic. Please send us a video of your walking on water parlor trick.
Is your Bible next to Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings on your shelf?
Sounds miraculous huh?
Do you resort to supernatural magic explanations for other things in your life?
Is your toaster burning toast because of demons or gremlins?
Or do you only do supernatural magic explanations for books like the Bible, Harry Potter, and the Lord of the Rings?
I would just carry the same logic a little farther and look for ice as an example of walking on water in a solid form.
Yes I only see modern supernatural stories in stuff like the Bible and Harry Potter. Though I never read Harry Potter because I felt it sucked. But it’s a far better series than if they tried to redo the series but only from the perspective of a story that does not break any natural laws. That would have probably left the book as just waste of digital space.
Yeah… when I was in high school someone asked me what I thought of the Bible. I said it was at least as good as the other fantasy books I was reading. But… that is before I was a Christian. I can certainly understand that point of view. I am a Christian now because I think the book is about real life.
Do you really believe Jesus was walking on ice?
Interesting thoughts about how natural phenomena could have been used in miracles, something that resonates with me. But, is that any different that just saying Jesus was able through the divine power of God to escape the grasp of gravity in order to walk over the water? The line between what see as supernatural and God’s intervention using means consistent with what we know about physical laws is fuzzy. Of course Jesus coming to them out over the water had to bring images of Genesis 1 when the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.
I’ve seen it postulated that Joshua’s long day was a massive thermal inversion that extended over the horizon resulting in a superior mirage so that the sun and moon appeared to stay in place. So yes, @mitchellmckain, that would be an optical illusion, just a little providentially timed and placed.
I’ve heard it explained away as walking on shoals, but that would make Jesus deceptive and his disciples dumb and gullible.
I’m perfectly fine with a natural explanation for things that seem supernatural in nature. As mentioned in other threads I outright reject an overwhelming large amount of things under the umbrella of modern miracles through the laying on of hands such as instant healing, casting out demons , speaking in tongues and so on.
But for me the belief in a god instantly opens up what we call the supernatural, or even a term maybe like multidimensional or whatever. Either ways it’s something outside of our typical reality.
I know that if I wanted too I could try to read Matthew 14 naturalistically.
For example the word for walking can mean walking around. The word there that means sea ( lake ) is also used in some places to say seashore.
So it could be read that Jesus was walking around on the seashore and the disciples saw him from the boat and thought it was a ghost. I mean I know people nowadays who believes in ghosts and have thought people in windows or cemeteries were ghosts. So maybe they saw him and thought he was a ghost. Then Peter realized it was Jesus and so he said to Jesus tell me to get out of the boat and maybe the water was not that deep right there but like with big waves, perhaps they were several feet high and it was causing Peter to stumble and sink. Jesus rushed out and grabbed him and they climbed back into the boat and the wind calmed down and maybe the wind instantly calming down is what lead to the exclaim about Jesus. After all it talks of God calming storms as well and maybe it was read as Jesus calming the breath of God and in order to calm the breath of God you just be God etc.
Now I don’t find that interpretation crazy, I definitely find it less crazy than an ice bridge in the Mediterranean, but nonetheless, I feel like the image is of Jesus somehow walking about the waters hyperlinking to all the chaos and death and resurrection language.
Gravity wasn’t the problem. you can’t walk without it, or Velcro… AH!!!
Well, whatever the mechanism. Sort of goes the question of if Jesus was walking across a flowing river, would he go straight across it, or be carried downstream with the flow.
The custard would have to cancel catadromous inertia. Nothing the Spirit can’t handle I’m sure. But wouldn’t Jesus know to step upstream at an angle to offset the flow? Or start out upstream taking the downstream angled destination in to account? Or would He just step out in faith?
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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